no more magicmarts - restrictive gaming or responsible DM'ing?

[ErhnamDJ]

It's not like Capitalism exists in D&D

What, then, do the existence of the profession skill and its big brother the business rules (from DMG2) imply?

What of the base assumption that items can be created and traded through one's own volition?

Am I missing something? Is there some other force at play?

[Lycanthromancer]

Am I missing something? Is there some other foce at play?

A wizard did it?

[Brainpiercing]

It's not like Capitalism exists in D&D

What, then, do the existence of the profession skill and its big brother the business rules (from DMG2) imply?

What of the base assumption that items can be created and traded through one's own volition?

Am I missing something? Is there some other force at play?

A wizard did it?

That's actually highly probable. Look at it this way: How smart were all the fathers of our economic systems? I'll bet you they didn't have a 42 in Intelligence, like THE WIZARD, (or a 142 if you count epic ).
So really, probably THE WIZARD realized that all those things that we are doing right now only prove to be a vicious circle of whatever, and have abolished all that crap about supply and demand, profit margins, etc., and have replaced it with a system even Joe Stupid can understand: You BUY for full price (and it's always the same price everywhere), and you SELL for half-price.

The WIZARD gets the missing 50%.

[awaken DM golem]

Well hold on now.
It took a whole bunch of INT 21+ guys, about 4 Millennium, to construct modern science.
And that's in a Low Magic World, with perhaps a rating of (-5) via the old 1e Planes book.
So let's not be so hasty as to suggest Profession + DMG2 business + SS Ritual Loans = Modern Capitalism.

And yes, at the Wish Economy level, the Wizards win ...
but only as much as the various smarter and more powerful races allow to happen.


Y'know ... the Bunko's Thugs and Mafia are gonna control the "middle" ground.
I went searching for the old Spells That Shape The World thread.
http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-674452

It seems to me that:
(1) ... Hinterlands + Turnip economy is the low end, and RAI
(2) ... Early Spells That Shape The World
(3) ... Bunko's shuttle "service" and scam artistes
(4) ... Later Spells That Shape The World
(5) ... Wish Economy
(6) ... Trans-Wish, Epic and Deific

And in each case, there's a lot more trade going on, than anything resembling a Magic Mart.
Characters are usually stuck doing it themselves, vs. having to deal with unsavory Bunko types.

[Kuroimaken]

Well hold on now.
It took a whole bunch of INT 21+ guys, about 4 Millennium, to construct modern science.
And that's in a Low Magic World, with perhaps a rating of (-5) via the old 1e Planes book.
So let's not be so hasty as to suggest Profession + DMG2 business + SS Ritual Loans = Modern Capitalism.

And yes, at the Wish Economy level, the Wizards win ...
but only as much as the various smarter and more powerful races allow to happen.


Y'know ... the Bunko's Thugs and Mafia are gonna control the "middle" ground.
I went searching for the old Spells That Shape The World thread.
http://forums.gleemax.com/wotc_archive/index.php/t-674452

It seems to me that:
(1) ... Hinterlands + Turnip economy is the low end, and RAI
(2) ... Early Spells That Shape The World
(3) ... Bunko's shuttle "service" and scam artistes
(4) ... Later Spells That Shape The World
(5) ... Wish Economy
(6) ... Trans-Wish, Epic and Deific

And in each case, there's a lot more trade going on, than anything resembling a Magic Mart.
Characters are usually stuck doing it themselves, vs. having to deal with unsavory Bunko types.

When you mention number 1, by RAI you mean Reality As Intended, right?

[awaken DM golem]

umm, Yes !

I was looking through my (old) DMG v3.0 last night.
It says only 10-15% of the people live it Small Towns or larger settlements. These are the (+0) +3 +6 +9 and +12 places.
Most commoner 1s would have no contact to speak of with the Wish Economy.
They would see a Wizard pop in every 10 years or so. Kinda like Gandalf at the Shire, but even rarer.

Price Fixing.
(bad) Labor Contracts, forever.
This economy collapses, no matter what.
But the DM / Wizard steps in and refloats the economy every now and then.
I suppose the (-2) town's Aristocrat is a logical outcome, of a busted economy.
Mercantile feat requires training, and Daddy only trains the 1st born Son, even if he's an Idiot.

The smallest, and least magic-ey hamlet (and this is the extreme rare case) could have:
1 Expert 1
1 Warrior 1
18 Commoner 1s
Mixed LA+0 races, Humans are maybe 7 of the populous.
The hard cap of 40gp in floaty cash, and items.
Wanderers Diplomacy feat / Divinations might get a bead on more stuff.
The town gathers to hear out the "outsiders".
They make a corporate decision about whether to ~help the outsiders.
No much of a magic mart

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Epic casters are probably responsible for the common language, as well as the standardized currency.  The value of a GP is probably fixed based on the price of material components, rather than the other way around. 

The pearls for Identify are used to define the value of platinum pieces. 

[Brainpiercing]

Look, what you guys are forgetting: Int 18 is already Einstein level. And I don't even think Adam Smith was that smart.

You have a NI number of retired player characters runnning about doing mostly good deeds. You think none of them ever gives a Bottle of Endless Water to a hamlet, which then becomes the hamlet's prized posession, leading to wealth and prosperity? And it only starts there.

IMHO if you want to keep the little guys down continuously you need an evil masterplan.

[Nanshork]

You have a NI number of retired player characters runnning about doing mostly good deeds. You think none of them ever gives a Bottle of Endless Water to a hamlet, which then becomes the hamlet's prized posession, leading to wealth and prosperity? And it only starts there.

Retired evil PC's don't count?

[The_Mad_Linguist]

You have a NI number of retired player characters runnning about doing mostly good deeds. You think none of them ever gives a Bottle of Endless Water to a hamlet, which then becomes the hamlet's prized posession, leading to wealth and prosperity? And it only starts there.

Retired evil PC's don't count?

Evil PCs are much less common, and don't cooperate to nearly the same extent.  Their influence is probably negligible.

[Kuroimaken]

You have a NI number of retired player characters runnning about doing mostly good deeds. You think none of them ever gives a Bottle of Endless Water to a hamlet, which then becomes the hamlet's prized posession, leading to wealth and prosperity? And it only starts there.

Retired evil PC's don't count?

Evil PCs are much less common, and don't cooperate to nearly the same extent.  Their influence is probably negligible.

If an evil PC is retired, then he's not doing much evil. Evil is, by necessity, proactive.

[AfterCrescent]

So is good, by that logic.

[juton]

Look, what you guys are forgetting: Int 18 is already Einstein level. And I don't even think Adam Smith was that smart.

Minor Derail:

Converting some D&D attributes to the real world is easy, well strength is (because of the little chart). Do any of the books discuss how intelligent corresponds to IQ? Because with 4d6, drop the lowest you have an 11% chance of getting an 18, Einstein was thought to have at least an 150 IQ which occurs in less than a thousand people.

Maybe we can reconcile the difference in that Einstein was a higher (possibly epic) level physicist?

[skydragonknight]

I always love it when people try to rationalize these types of things. So I'll do it too.

Let's say I'm Mr. Bunko. Mr. Bunko has people that make +1 weapons. He pays them 1000 gold + half the price of the weapon(including masterwork) + a little extra(for XP and time, maybe 200 gold more).

Now Joe Schmo, intrepid 4th level Fighter comes in and wants to sell the +1 Greataxe he found off a now-dead Orc. The Greataxe is used-it's blade hasn't been well kept. But me, I'm Mr. Bunko. I have people that can fix that.

Obviously I'm not going to buy a used blade for as much as I commission a new one, so I'll pay the guy 1000 gold + half the price of the weapon(including labor) and nothing for time or labor, since the Fighter didn't make the weapon and I have to pay someone to polish it up and make it look presentable.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Look, what you guys are forgetting: Int 18 is already Einstein level. And I don't even think Adam Smith was that smart.

Minor Derail:

Converting some D&D attributes to the real world is easy, well strength is (because of the little chart). Do any of the books discuss how intelligent corresponds to IQ? Because with 4d6, drop the lowest you have an 11% chance of getting an 18, Einstein was thought to have at least an 150 IQ which occurs in less than a thousand people.

Maybe we can reconcile the difference in that Einstein was a higher (possibly epic) level physicist?

Well, only PCs use 4d6 drop the lowest.

In addition, I doubt anyone IRL is above level six.  Level eight at maximum.

[woodenbandman]

A lot of people, however, abuse the crafting system to get a fuckton of money without increasing in physical power.

[Brainpiercing]

So is good, by that logic.

That's true. However, there are many inconsequential good deeds that are not worth roleplaying, while really, no evil character should be retired at lvl 20. I mean, that's where the party really gets going... .

But yeah, I guess I have to conceed I really only have the numbers argument.

Minor Derail:

Converting some D&D attributes to the real world is easy, well strength is (because of the little chart). Do any of the books discuss how intelligent corresponds to IQ? Because with 4d6, drop the lowest you have an 11% chance of getting an 18, Einstein was thought to have at least an 150 IQ which occurs in less than a thousand people.

Maybe we can reconcile the difference in that Einstein was a higher (possibly epic) level physicist?

Uh, commoners  don't get 4d6. They get 3d6, or even worse, 10s and 11s unless they are in some way special. In D&D people are not created equal. So what do the books say on the numbers? How many people are there that even get 4d6, i.e. how many people are either PCs or important NPCs?

Also, Einstein wasn't an economist, and we have to ask ourselves how smart the economists were that designed our form(s) of capitalism. Looking at the state of it right now...

And hey, I don't remember my last level-up...

[mans0011]

So is good, by that logic.

That's true. However, there are many inconsequential good deeds that are not worth roleplaying, while really, no evil character should be retired at lvl 20. I mean, that's where the party really gets going... .

But yeah, I guess I have to conceed I really only have the numbers argument.

Minor Derail:

Converting some D&D attributes to the real world is easy, well strength is (because of the little chart). Do any of the books discuss how intelligent corresponds to IQ? Because with 4d6, drop the lowest you have an 11% chance of getting an 18, Einstein was thought to have at least an 150 IQ which occurs in less than a thousand people.

Maybe we can reconcile the difference in that Einstein was a higher (possibly epic) level physicist?

Uh, commoners  don't get 4d6. They get 3d6, or even worse, 10s and 11s unless they are in some way special. In D&D people are not created equal. So what do the books say on the numbers? How many people are there that even get 4d6, i.e. how many people are either PCs or important NPCs?

Also, Einstein wasn't an economist, and we have to ask ourselves how smart the economists were that designed our form(s) of capitalism. Looking at the state of it right now...

And hey, I don't remember my last level-up...

How many super intelligent people only know their specific field of study? Very often, intelligent people know a lot. About a lot of things. Intelligence isn't JUST a physical thing; most smart people have a diverse and varied reading repertoire because smart people are people before anything else. They have interests and hobbies. Here's a good supporting piece of evidence: I doubt that any (maybe one or two) of us in this conversation are "economists" but we're talking about it. Most of us has studied economics at some point and probably did well. I imagine smart people do the same sorts of things. They get interested in it and think about it and try to solve puzzles that arise because, well, it's fun to solve puzzles. Just because it's not your job to design an economic system doesn't mean that you've got nothing to say about it or cannot contribute to the discussion.

[skydragonknight]

So is good, by that logic.

That's true. However, there are many inconsequential good deeds that are not worth roleplaying, while really, no evil character should be retired at lvl 20. I mean, that's where the party really gets going... .

Nope. They DO retire...on paper. And become the person behind the curtain. They all have the Leadership feat, which gives them tons of lackeys and a cohort who looks like the main villain but who is really a pawn.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

To me, it makes little difference whether that magical weapon the fighter wants simply fell from the sky (and I do assume that in this case, you can work the phenomena of magic items falling from the sky seamlessly into your campaign setting)

Thor: "Now where did my greathammer of badassness go? Damnit I loose everything around here!"

Loans.

I wonder if the Savage Species ritual stuff, has enough information, to couch out some sort of Loan-ish money function.

Exactly... I find that bending WBL a bit can make players happy as long as your a smart DM who doesn't say yes to anything broken 

It seems to me that:
(1) ... Hinterlands + Turnip economy is the low end, and RAI
(2) ... Early Spells That Shape The World
(3) ... Bunko's shuttle "service" and scam artistes
(4) ... Later Spells That Shape The World
(5) ... Wish Economy
(6) ... Trans-Wish, Epic and Deific

Very Nice... I like where this is headed