Author Topic: no more magicmarts - restrictive gaming or responsible DM'ing?  (Read 33315 times)

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PhaedrusXY

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Re: no more magicmarts - restrictive gaming or responsible DM'ing?
« Reply #100 on: March 12, 2009, 08:00:37 PM »
Are all magic item sellers GangSters of the first degree  :smirk
They'd pretty much have to be. Otherwise, they'd get robbed and killed very quickly, I'd imagine.
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Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
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awaken DM golem

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Re: no more magicmarts - restrictive gaming or responsible DM'ing?
« Reply #101 on: March 12, 2009, 08:20:31 PM »
So trying to buy magic items of a game breaking level, is like a scene or two from the Godfather trilogy.

"We wanna sell magic items (heroin)."
"We think that's beneath us ... oh wait (thinks) ... not any more, we want the dough too."

later

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Brainpiercing

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Re: no more magicmarts - restrictive gaming or responsible DM'ing?
« Reply #102 on: March 12, 2009, 08:37:09 PM »
I find the systematic for wish magic items a little weird. First, a wish can produce 25000gp, which alone should be enough to ruin the currency :).

Secondly, you CAN make items that cost more, like Tomes, but you need to get several Efreet at the same time. You can also create all the non-magical components for the crafting, as well as provide most of the spell effects, IMHO, by wishes. So the non-trivial item would basically ONLY cost the crafter's XP. The question is, with gold being basically worthless, what do you sell that for?

PhaedrusXY

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Re: no more magicmarts - restrictive gaming or responsible DM'ing?
« Reply #103 on: March 12, 2009, 09:19:14 PM »
I find the systematic for wish magic items a little weird. First, a wish can produce 25000gp, which alone should be enough to ruin the currency :).
So I got the number a bit wrong. :p Not everyone can access "the wish economy" (which is what you access when you can first chain-bind efreet). So low level/power mooks still operate under the standard "peasant" D&D economy... except powerful kings and the like can afford to equip their entire armies with low level magic gear, if they want to dedicate the time to it.

Quote
Secondly, you CAN make items that cost more, like Tomes, but you need to get several Efreet at the same time.
I think that's one of the things they had to house-rule to fix (no wishing for scrolls of Wish, no wishing for things that cost more than 25,000 gp, even if you combine wishes, etc).
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So the non-trivial item would basically ONLY cost the crafter's XP. The question is, with gold being basically worthless, what do you sell that for?
Basically, you don't. You have to kill people to get that stuff, or do big favors for them, or make it yourself.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2009, 09:21:47 PM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

woodenbandman

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Re: no more magicmarts - restrictive gaming or responsible DM'ing?
« Reply #104 on: March 12, 2009, 09:27:23 PM »
Dude a wish can create any item for ONLY double XP cost of the item. No money needed. No extra wishing needed. Just get 1 efreet and wish for 1 tome.

Or, you know, not. You could always play the game right  ;)

fliprushman

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Re: no more magicmarts - restrictive gaming or responsible DM'ing?
« Reply #105 on: March 12, 2009, 10:39:14 PM »
I'm surprised no one has really gone into the sacred cow/holdout argument about 1gp=1xp that DnD used to use.  That's the only reason I see players receiving gold in 3e.  It's not so they can buy whatever item they want. ;) :P
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: no more magicmarts - restrictive gaming or responsible DM'ing?
« Reply #106 on: March 12, 2009, 10:53:06 PM »
Dude a wish can create any item for ONLY double XP cost of the item. No money needed. No extra wishing needed. Just get 1 efreet and wish for 1 tome.

Or, you know, not. You could always play the game right  ;)
Play the game right... yeah... you mean like you play it? (There is no wrong way to play the game.)

I didn't make this system up. I've never played in a game that used it, and I'm not even that familiar with it. So I'm not going to bother trying to defend it.

I do think it makes more sense than the stupid standard D&D economics, what with how easy it is to make boatloads of free money and get free Wishes. Either you can houserule every kind of wealth loophole in the game (and there are a LOT of them), or you can let them all stand, and just say that above a certain level, they're useless at gaining you more power. (Which is more like real life. You can't go out and buy a nuclear warhead, no matter how rich you are as an individual, because no one sells that shit).
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Kuroimaken

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Re: no more magicmarts - restrictive gaming or responsible DM'ing?
« Reply #107 on: March 12, 2009, 10:56:44 PM »
Dude a wish can create any item for ONLY double XP cost of the item. No money needed. No extra wishing needed. Just get 1 efreet and wish for 1 tome.

Or, you know, not. You could always play the game right  ;)
Play the game right... yeah... you mean like you play it? (There is no wrong way to play the game.)

I didn't make this system up. I've never played in a game that used it, and I'm not even that familiar with it. So I'm not going to bother trying to defend it.

I do think it makes more sense than the stupid standard D&D economics, what with how easy it is to make boatloads of free money and get free Wishes. Either you can houserule every kind of wealth loophole in the game (and there are a LOT of them), or you can let them all stand, and just say that above a certain level, they're useless at gaining you more power. (Which is more like real life. You can't go out and buy a nuclear warhead, no matter how rich you are as an individual, because no one sells that shit).

No one WE know, anyway. Both the necessary components and the technology to do that are relatively easy to smuggle past anyone not specifically looking for it. For all we know, Alaska could have its own nuke.
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jameswilliamogle

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Re: no more magicmarts - restrictive gaming or responsible DM'ing?
« Reply #108 on: March 12, 2009, 10:58:29 PM »
No one WE know, anyway. Both the necessary components and the technology to do that are relatively easy to smuggle past anyone not specifically looking for it. For all we know, Alaska could have its own nuke.
My vote would go to Texas before Alaska, actually...  It takes a certain mindset...

Brainpiercing

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Re: no more magicmarts - restrictive gaming or responsible DM'ing?
« Reply #109 on: March 12, 2009, 11:33:37 PM »
Quote
Either you can houserule every kind of wealth loophole in the game (and there are a LOT of them), or you can let them all stand, and just say that above a certain level, they're useless at gaining you more power. (Which is more like real life. You can't go out and buy a nuclear warhead, no matter how rich you are as an individual, because no one sells that shit).
While it's most probably easier to buy a nuke than we would all like to think... I guess that it could work like that.
Even with tomes, I don't really see how they are ever made: To create a tome, the crafter has to actually CAST the wish, or at least pay the material component. To create a +5 tome the crafter has to PAY IMMEDIATELY 25000XP if he doesn't use Efreet, unless I've totally misunderstood the crafting rules. Now how many Lvl 26wizards are running around? Especially in non-epic game worlds? And why would they make that tome for YOU, bitch?

For epic games, XP and time constraints are also a real issue. However, items are also even MORE important, IMHO, especially for beatsticks. There is certainly ambiguity here, and a definite lack of consistency on the part of the game.

woodenbandman

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Re: no more magicmarts - restrictive gaming or responsible DM'ing?
« Reply #110 on: March 12, 2009, 11:42:31 PM »
Chill Phaedrus. What I meant by that statement was to play by obeying the standard wealth guidelines of X gold at Y level and buy gear with that much gold, and not buy candles of invocation and farm infinity wishes. I wouldn't mind playing in a game where everyone did that, but the whole thread's kind of about balancing stuff like this.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: no more magicmarts - restrictive gaming or responsible DM'ing?
« Reply #111 on: March 12, 2009, 11:53:47 PM »
Chill Phaedrus. What I meant by that statement was to play by obeying the standard wealth guidelines of X gold at Y level and buy gear with that much gold, and not buy candles of invocation and farm infinity wishes. I wouldn't mind playing in a game where everyone did that, but the whole thread's kind of about balancing stuff like this.
And the system I mentioned is just one way to deal with it. I remember reading about games that were ran like this, and there were a few "balance" problems, but it didn't sound like it was any more unbalanced than a standard game, once you got used to the differences.
Quote
Either you can houserule every kind of wealth loophole in the game (and there are a LOT of them), or you can let them all stand, and just say that above a certain level, they're useless at gaining you more power. (Which is more like real life. You can't go out and buy a nuclear warhead, no matter how rich you are as an individual, because no one sells that shit).
While it's most probably easier to buy a nuke than we would all like to think... I guess that it could work like that.
Even with tomes, I don't really see how they are ever made: To create a tome, the crafter has to actually CAST the wish, or at least pay the material component. To create a +5 tome the crafter has to PAY IMMEDIATELY 25000XP if he doesn't use Efreet, unless I've totally misunderstood the crafting rules. Now how many Lvl 26wizards are running around? Especially in non-epic game worlds? And why would they make that tome for YOU, bitch?

For epic games, XP and time constraints are also a real issue. However, items are also even MORE important, IMHO, especially for beatsticks. There is certainly ambiguity here, and a definite lack of consistency on the part of the game.
I think you and Kuro seriously underestimate the difficulty with getting nuclear weapons... like by several orders of magnitude...  and I think I'd better leave it at that... (In D&D terms, it would be like trying to buy 9th level spells, while every guy who already has 9th level spells was trying to stop you from buying them... Good luck with that...)

You can store XP instead of leveling, IIRC. But yeah, the crafting rules are pretty borked. And yeah, I doubt anyone would ever make a +5 Tome using "legal" crafting rules, and if they did they sure as HELL wouldn't SELL it. Hence another reason I think the "Wish economy" makes more sense than the standard one.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

woodenbandman

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Re: no more magicmarts - restrictive gaming or responsible DM'ing?
« Reply #112 on: March 13, 2009, 12:05:28 AM »
I've read the F&K tome a bit, and I do like the wish economy.

Straw_Man

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Re: no more magicmarts - restrictive gaming or responsible DM'ing?
« Reply #113 on: March 13, 2009, 12:48:16 AM »

  Okay, 2 cents worth - why do Wizards, Artificers, etc make items. By the time they can, their sitting on real power and real adventurers are paranoid psychotics that don't like to share. So their adventures, and some may want to help their gimped buddies who saved their bacons way back when they were level one. Doesn't explain why they make so many. Certainly not enough to run magic marts in every city.

  And using the argument that any well prepped caster type knows about Sigil, all buyable equipment, etc, they also know how to make said money and when it becomes feasible. Some may be made as rewards, payment, etc, but again Magicmart tm isn't going to spring up. Those items usually get handed down or in some cases, pried out of the hands of the dead.

  Magicmarts are a game balancing mechanism, keeps non-spellcasters theoretically on par spellcasting peers. But realistically, I doubt you can justify it economically or psychologically.
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PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: no more magicmarts - restrictive gaming or responsible DM'ing?
« Reply #114 on: March 13, 2009, 12:10:49 PM »
I understand the arguments the other way, but even aside from my agreeing bias, that was a really good argument, Straw_Man

Also, Phaedrus' analogy was awesome. :D
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An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: no more magicmarts - restrictive gaming or responsible DM'ing?
« Reply #115 on: March 13, 2009, 12:53:08 PM »
Basically, Wealth By Level is the hidden point-buy powers system in DnD.
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Soda

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Re: no more magicmarts - restrictive gaming or responsible DM'ing?
« Reply #116 on: March 13, 2009, 01:12:08 PM »
I think no matter the setting, as heroes of destiny, the PCs should have access to any item, one way or another. Even if there only is one holy avenger, your player's paladin is fated to wield it. It only depends on how you introduce the item, via treasure, or a quest, or just gather information checks.

It's a bit of a coincidence that an aristocrat has the keen rapier your character wanted, and is willing to duel for it, but who cares?

woodenbandman

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Re: no more magicmarts - restrictive gaming or responsible DM'ing?
« Reply #117 on: March 13, 2009, 02:12:07 PM »
I think that we should all embrace the magicmart mentality. I think that we should have settings that have a Mage-Mart taking over the mom & pop main-road magic item stores because they offer fantastic items with lower prices, though they hire non-dragonwrought kobolds for less than minimum wage. That is, until Nop-Nop Chavez leads them to demand fair wages, regardless of dragonblood status.  :lmao

archangel.arcanis

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Re: no more magicmarts - restrictive gaming or responsible DM'ing?
« Reply #118 on: March 13, 2009, 02:20:11 PM »
we kind of addressed this in a game me and a friend are co-DMing. There is exactly 1 guy who makes all magic items in the setting, he was the only one who is really interested in it. The mage guild decided they couldn't let all magic items be made by freelancers, so they just proceeded to make clones of him before he died of age. Now most major towns and cities have a magic item shop. When a clone starts to run out of xp they just make another one, it isn't entirely clear how but they do. Because it is a network of copies of one guy they coordinate stock and work together to make whatever items are commissioned. Oh and our party hasn't figured out its the same guy at every magic shop yet either.

We decided it was sensible that there would be 1 person who actually liked making the items, so we found creative ways for him to keep doing it.  So now we have an (assumed) epic spellcaster (i guess he needs to be a warlock or artificer to truly make anything) that has been replicated NI times, lets say we used the NI clones concept from Break it Buy it forum after a reincarnate to keep him young, making whatever needs to be made and the party is happy because they can get what they want if it does cost some time and money.  By the same token our world isn't flooded with magic items because these guys keep the same ones in circulation and replace the destroyed ones.
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Straw_Man

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Re: no more magicmarts - restrictive gaming or responsible DM'ing?
« Reply #119 on: March 13, 2009, 02:26:47 PM »

  Who cares Soda,  :) or rather it matters because instead of realising the means of treasure are up to GM and story flavour  there are still proponents of the sacred RAW theory of treasure acquisition.

  Myself, in my worlds (unless its PbP) magic is scarce in the sense you cant buy it. Over-inflated prices render even the simplest wish list a challenge. Crafters are to be placated, and magical treasure is the best reward to get people to do stuff for you. Think about that. People are hired for less than a gold piece a day. PC's are hired with magic items worth thousands of gold; what value does that place on PC's?

  Storytelling wise I find it an excellent way of keeping them equipped without sacrifing the flavour of the world; the only setting that pulls off MagicMart well in my experience is Eberron.  Probably because the setting grew out of an industrial-renaissance setting instead of mass-consumer economy being grafted on for game balancing reasons.

Cheers
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