Gestalt ECLx versus non-Gestalt ECLx?

[Surreal]

Honestly, the best assessment I've seen of Gestalt simply charged you the xp for each class separately.  It's pretty much like having two characters, but without additional actions.  On the other hand, easier PrC qualifications. 


Oh, this includes bonus xp for being below the party, of course.

I've seen this approach used before and I think it works out reasonably well and doesn't require any finagling of existing rules. The difference slowly scales, and by the time the regular party members hit level 20 the gestalt character is about level 17.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

I didn't mean to ignore the post you quoted but I hoped I had misunderstood.

Without LAs murking things level 15 requires 105k Xp while capping requires 190k XP so if each side of the ghestalt requires its own XP to level, then when non-ghestalt partymembers are at ECL 20 such 14//14

So this method is a 1 to 6 level spread.

[PhaedrusXY]

I didn't mean to ignore the post you quoted but I hoped I had misunderstood.

Without LAs murking things level 15 requires 105k Xp while capping requires 190k XP so if each side of the ghestalt requires its own XP to level, then when non-ghestalt partymembers are at ECL 20 such 14//14

So this method is a 1 to 6 level spread.

Except that lower level characters get more XP.

[Lycanthromancer]

It's like with women. There's NEVER a simple answer.

It's not just women. Men can be a headache and a half to deal with, too.

[ErhnamDJ]

Don't forget robots. That VCR is still out to get me.

[Kuroimaken]

It's like with women. There's NEVER a simple answer.

It's not just women. Men can be a headache and a half to deal with, too.

To be fair, I WAS referring to a romantic environment.

[Lycanthromancer]

It's like with women. There's NEVER a simple answer.

It's not just women. Men can be a headache and a half to deal with, too.

To be fair, I WAS referring to a romantic environment.

To be fair, so was I.

[Kuroimaken]

It's like with women. There's NEVER a simple answer.

It's not just women. Men can be a headache and a half to deal with, too.

To be fair, I WAS referring to a romantic environment.

To be fair, so was I.

I gotta say I didn't follow (especially because I'm unaware of your gender).

[Lycanthromancer]

It's like with women. There's NEVER a simple answer.

It's not just women. Men can be a headache and a half to deal with, too.

To be fair, I WAS referring to a romantic environment.

To be fair, so was I.

I gotta say I didn't follow (especially because I'm unaware of your gender).

Well, I am male, if that tells you anything.

And yes, it does mean what you think it means.

[Kuroimaken]

It's like with women. There's NEVER a simple answer.

It's not just women. Men can be a headache and a half to deal with, too.

To be fair, I WAS referring to a romantic environment.

To be fair, so was I.

I gotta say I didn't follow (especially because I'm unaware of your gender).

Well, I am male, if that tells you anything.

And yes, it does mean what you think it means.

Meh, I guarantee you. Men are relatively simple compared to how women work.

[Lycanthromancer]

It's like with women. There's NEVER a simple answer.

It's not just women. Men can be a headache and a half to deal with, too.

To be fair, I WAS referring to a romantic environment.

To be fair, so was I.

I gotta say I didn't follow (especially because I'm unaware of your gender).

Well, I am male, if that tells you anything.

And yes, it does mean what you think it means.

Meh, I guarantee you. Men are relatively simple compared to how women work.

Not sure if I believe you, but if true, then lucky me.

[Kuroimaken]

Given that I have no experience with men in that regard, let's just agree to agree. 

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

I realize this is the internet where all the world's sin and perversion can have its time in the monitory glow but... back on topic:

I didn't mean to ignore the post you quoted but I hoped I had misunderstood.

Without LAs murking things level 15 requires 105k Xp while capping requires 190k XP so if each side of the ghestalt requires its own XP to level, then when non-ghestalt partymembers are at ECL 20 such 14//14

So this method is a 1 to 6 level spread.

Except that lower level characters get more XP.

Ah yes I am aware of this, but never had to deal with it practically. Where do I look for how to calculate bonus Xp from ECL party difference? I hate how DnD has no centralized rule book and the SRD has cannot "Describe a process for Applying the Effects of Experience to a Character"'. Is it PHB, PHBII, DMG, DMGII, Rules compendium, etc (and what page)?

[PhaedrusXY]

It's in the DMG 1. I don't remember the page number. It's a core rule, though; not something from a splat book.

[Jenos]

EXP rules are not OGL material, the rules for EXP per character is found on page 38 of the DMG. The rules for multi ECL characters is found on page 37.

[Lycanthromancer]

[spoiler]

I realize this is the internet where all the world's sin and perversion can have its time in the monitory glow but... back on topic:

Gee, that's not insulting at all.[/spoiler]

[Kuroimaken]

[spoiler]

I realize this is the internet where all the world's sin and perversion can have its time in the monitory glow but... back on topic:

Gee, that's not insulting at all.[/spoiler]

He was mostly poking fun at straying off-topic. Think nothing of it.

By the way, what does everyone think of Gestalt 15//15 versus straight up 20? I feel that Gestalt 17//17 isn't that big a difference, since caster-wise, everyone but the sorcerer is getting 9th level spells by that point, and the straight up 20 guys just have more spell slots...

[BowenSilverclaw]

I guess it depends on what you're playing. For a caster I'd probably still choose the straight 20 build. For a non-caster I might pick th 15//15 gestalt for the added versatility, although combat types still lose out on some nice BAB and that 4th attack...

[Kuroimaken]

I guess it depends on what you're playing. For a caster I'd probably still choose the straight 20 build. For a non-caster I might pick th 15//15 gestalt for the added versatility, although combat types still lose out on some nice BAB and that 4th attack...

I was assuming one side was a caster for comparison. After all, that's what throws things out of whack the most.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

I wasn't saying that any of the party members using or not using gestalt had to be casters. But you are right its the high level casting that shows where the real differences lie.

By the way Surreal I did some calculations on the bonus XP from being lower level but treating both sides of the gestalt as needing XP. It was scary. Depending on the encounters faced and the rest of the party (the most extreme example is a large party of non gestalts with only 1 gestalt character) the bonus XP could be insane.

For a crazy DM (like me) who plays only 'overpowering' Difficulty ratings the xp above the rest of the party would be around +25%. However if the DM gave easier encounters the xp % could skyrocket, enough to allow the gestalt character to almost catch up to the party (or even worse, the gestalt character could choose to stay more than a level down and item craft).

For a normal DM I don't see this being good... When I DM I don't allow extra XP from holding back a level (not leveling up) or by using up XP (either from crafting or spells).



But unless anyone has any reason to question these general rules (yes eyeballing is always good for specific DMs), this is what I will take away from this discussion:

1) the LA and HD matter needs to be cleared up. For those following the inane but RAW ECL=HD+Classes: LA should be on one or both sides but be applied alongside or before the LA. For 1 LA side users, if an LA is applied a class level should NOT be present on the other side. An optional exception would be for Racial LA or racial HD for an even more power.

   I prefer my ECL variation for mostly-free racial HD & having the LA on 1 side & allowing class levels on the other side of Racial LA. (For those who like low power campaigns LA should be required on both sides and the regular ECL calculations will ensure everyone is human)

2) The pure-combatant vs hybrid vs full caster arguments seems like an excuse to keep casters the ROFL PWNZORZ that they are in non-gestalt. I like balance (no really!) so even within a specific tier empowering the gishes and pure combatants while not really helping the casters seems fair to me. If anything, they are the danger. I even question if I'd allow the full casters to go the full 20 class level non-gestalt manner. They will still be stronger than the gish or pure-combatant anyways even when hampering them down to a max for 15//15. This leads to the class levels.

3) I'd say that a slightly underpowered mapping would be this: 5=4//4, 10=8//8, 15=12//12, 20=16//16,
Regular   Gestalt
1      1//1
2      2//2
3      3//2
4      4//3
5      4//4
6      5//5
7      6//5
8      7//6
9      7//7
10      8//8
11      9//8
12      10//9
13      10//10
14      11//11
15      12//12
*16      13//13*
17      14//13
18      15//14
19      15//15
20      16//16

*Here is the sweet spot before regular old wizards start throwing around 9th level spells and everything normally goes to Hell.