Author Topic: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster  (Read 84687 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

The_Mad_Linguist

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8780
  • Simulated Thing
Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #400 on: October 15, 2009, 02:38:38 PM »
how do you get 100 mercanaries to his plane?
undetected?
simultaneously?
Without them all dying instantly to his array of magical traps?
Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.

SorO_Lost

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2355
  • I'll kill you before you're born.
Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #401 on: October 15, 2009, 02:43:34 PM »
how do you get 100 mercanaries to his plane?
detected?
simultaneously?
With them all dying instantly to his array of magical traps?

Fixed. I call them the trap Finding Squad. Best of all I'm paying them after they complete the job.
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

juton

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 809
  • Jack of all trades, master of nothing.
    • Email
Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #402 on: October 15, 2009, 03:05:06 PM »
think if you want to include COP you have to prevent it for relaying information from the future, otherwise a smart caster will still get game breaking information.
Then it isn't worth the spell slot it occupies. Hell even Divination, which is two levels lower, can look 1 week into the future.

After thinking about it a bit more, I think I agree that Mindblank should block answers to direct questions about Mindblanked individuals. Per the "fluff" it probably shouldn't, but per the RAW it should.

I think Divination's usefullness is a lot less than COP, I'm uncertain as to its TO potential because of the DM involvement it might entail. I think COP is still useful if limited to the present tense, it can answer questions like:

Is anyone plotting to kill me?
How many people are plotting to kill me?
Are they planning to do something in the next week?
Which plane are they on?
Are they in a city/Which city are they in?
Is the most powerful of my malefactors more powerful than me?
Is my most powerful malefactor a Caster/Assasin/Fighter/whatever?
Do they have a strong Fort/Ref/Will/SR?
What toppings should I get on my pizza?

So even limited to the here and now I think COP is definitely worth its spell slot. Now if its blocked by Mindblank, like Legend Lore or Greater Scrying and that makes it too weak that's a problem with Mindblank not contact other plane.

@the mercenaries
100 level 1 mercenaries, why are we even talking about this? I think you could build a 20th level monk and mop the floor with 100 level 1 mercs, and I hate Monks. The Monk wouldn't even get any experience for doing so for heaven's sake! 

SorO_Lost

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2355
  • I'll kill you before you're born.
Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #403 on: October 16, 2009, 01:02:19 AM »
Yeah they would. 35 level 1s are EL 20, I have no clue how much 100 are, but bring on the XPs!
Tiers explained in 8 sentences. With examples!
[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
3: Focused casters. Bard, Beguiler, Dread Necromancer, Martial Adapts, Warmage.
2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
0: Gods. StP Erudite, Illthid Savant, Pun-Pun, Rocks fall & you die.
[/spoiler]

PhaedrusXY

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8022
  • Advanced Spambot
Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #404 on: October 16, 2009, 01:16:02 AM »
Yeah they would. 35 level 1s are EL 20, I have no clue how much 100 are, but bring on the XPs!
You don't get XP based on EL. You get XP based on the CR of each monster. You calculate it separately for every one, not as a group. EL only lets you calculate if something is an appropriate challenge for a party of a given level. It is not used in XP calculations at all.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

altpersona

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 2939
  • BG forum Emperor Ad Litem
    • Altpersona.net
Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #405 on: October 16, 2009, 03:26:31 PM »
ew, dc 15 knowledge check, should taken 20 on that one
The goal of power is power. - idk
We are not descended from fearful men. - Murrow

The Final Countdown is now stuck in your head.

Anim-manga sux.


Negative Zero

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1532
    • Email
Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #406 on: October 16, 2009, 04:10:00 PM »
ew, dc 15 knowledge check, should taken 20 on that one

You can't take 20 on knowledge checks.

Tshern

  • Clown Prince of Crime
  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5726
  • Aistii valoa auttavasti
    • Email
Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #407 on: October 16, 2009, 04:49:09 PM »
Okay, so what is the first level the noncaster will actually win at any level of consistency?

Handy Links

juton

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 809
  • Jack of all trades, master of nothing.
    • Email
Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #408 on: October 16, 2009, 05:29:05 PM »
Okay, so what is the first level the noncaster will actually win at any level of consistency?

In an arena with prep time, which is the standard CO assumption, I think the anticaster can win fairly consistently up to around level 8. At that point the caster has some good save-or-lose spells but the anticaster can have good saves, the only thing that is auto-win for the caster is solid fog. Solid fog won't kill the anticaster but it will slow him down.

At level 9, the caster should get 5th level spells and whole new worlds of possibilities open up. At this level a caster should always be able to force a draw, or retreat in a non-arena setting.

Outside of questionable TO tactics (like major creation:black lotus poison) I'm not sure when a caster is guaranteed to beat the anticaster. At level 12 they can take craft contingent spell, they have access to Contact Other Plane and 6th level spells. They can turtle on their terms but I'm not sure how they'd actually kill any particular anticaster.

The_Mad_Linguist

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8780
  • Simulated Thing
Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #409 on: October 16, 2009, 05:40:58 PM »
Of course, at low levels initiative optimization and power word: pain can be used to force a draw.
Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.

PhaedrusXY

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8022
  • Advanced Spambot
Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #410 on: October 16, 2009, 05:47:19 PM »
Outside of questionable TO tactics (like major creation:black lotus poison) I'm not sure when a caster is guaranteed to beat the anticaster. At level 12 they can take craft contingent spell, they have access to Contact Other Plane and 6th level spells. They can turtle on their terms but I'm not sure how they'd actually kill any particular anticaster.
It has to be done on a case by case mostly as all "anti-casters" aren't exactly the same, but if the caster is a wizard, cleric, or other "Vancian" caster, they have the strategic flexibility to pull it off. They have more options, and those options are easily customizable. Of course, they will need to "cheat" by using Contact Other Plane or some other way of gaining foreknowledge, if they're going to prepare the perfect setup to take down any specific "anti-caster". Although... Uncanny Forethought goes a long way towards solving the preparation problem by itself.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Tshern

  • Clown Prince of Crime
  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 5726
  • Aistii valoa auttavasti
    • Email
Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #411 on: October 16, 2009, 05:54:34 PM »
I meant that let us assume a level 20 Wizard. Now make an anticaster and check how many levels he needs to win.

Handy Links

ReaderOfPosts

  • Domesticated Capuchin Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 115
    • Email
Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #412 on: October 16, 2009, 05:58:59 PM »
Can our spellcaster be beaten by another lvl 20 wizard?

Also, theoretically, our wizard can use craft contingencies on a bunch of high hitdice animals to create a computer to do divinations, since contingency triggers, even if not prescient, still are all knowing and unthwartable.

Negative Zero

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1532
    • Email
Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #413 on: October 16, 2009, 06:12:34 PM »
Actually, Craft Contingent Spells requires that the trigger be an effect on you. The spell Contingency doesn't have that problem, but the feat does.

ReaderOfPosts

  • Domesticated Capuchin Monkey
  • **
  • Posts: 115
    • Email
Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #414 on: October 16, 2009, 06:15:29 PM »
Huh. Good to know.

juton

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 809
  • Jack of all trades, master of nothing.
    • Email
Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #415 on: October 16, 2009, 06:25:26 PM »
I meant that let us assume a level 20 Wizard. Now make an anticaster and check how many levels he needs to win.

It's a sliding scale as you go up tiers. I don't think a Monk 1000 could do it (if they where limited to 20th WBL). An epic Eternal Blade (for saves, WBL) might be able to do it if the Wizard wasn't hunkered down on his own plane.

The key problem right now is there just seems to be no way around some of the Wizard's tricks. There's no counter to Contact Other Plane depending of your reading of RAW. There's no counter to the Dire Tortoise going first, there's nothing to stop a Caster from having a few contingent Celerities on him.

Actually, Craft Contingent Spells requires that the trigger be an effect on you. The spell Contingency doesn't have that problem, but the feat does.

That's awesome, and solves a lot of problems.

However there are still a bunch of other problems. Using RAW there are just some Caster abilities that are too powerful, I'm thinking of things that have no counter or are insta-wins. I think a Planar Shepard or a Dweomerkeeper have a shot at taking out a high level Wizard, but all the other classes aren't invited to that party.

I'm at the point, after a lot of people on Min/Max and 339 have tried to do the same thing, I don't think it's possible for a Tier 3 or less character to ever beat a truly prepared Wizard. That might change with some supplement or house rule, but unless someone surprises me I think this case is closed.

juton

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 809
  • Jack of all trades, master of nothing.
    • Email
Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #416 on: December 03, 2009, 12:56:07 AM »

The_Mad_Linguist

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8780
  • Simulated Thing
Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #417 on: December 03, 2009, 01:13:27 AM »
The tome rules help some, but they aren't all the way there.

The difference is partly in that the archetype that is being modeled by a wizard is a more powerful archetype than that of the fighter.
Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.

PhaedrusXY

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8022
  • Advanced Spambot
Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #418 on: December 03, 2009, 01:17:56 AM »
If you only want it to be possible, then it takes surprisingly few changes I think. Ban/nerf the Polymorph line so that you no longer ever get crazy abilities from them. Ban Celerity. Ban Genesis (or nerf the crap out of it). Let Mindblank apply to Contact Other Plane. I think that's actually enough. It still won't be easy, but it will be possible.

Now... if you want to make them able to contribute equally to fights... that's a whole 'nother ball of wax. I think the Tome Rules actually do go far enough, but they are pretty radical changes.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Negative Zero

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1532
    • Email
Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #419 on: December 03, 2009, 01:25:17 AM »
The Tome rules are great - their solution to Polymorph is pretty great.

Also, I say "You can't take ten on ability checks." Contact Other Plane = solved.