Author Topic: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster  (Read 84696 times)

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ErhnamDJ

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #320 on: May 31, 2009, 07:44:03 PM »
I don't think either of the sample builds have FoM all the time

Umm... they couldn't drop 20k on a ring?

Negative Zero

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #321 on: May 31, 2009, 07:45:47 PM »
Weren't you listening? I don't care if they could. I want to know if they did. We want sample builds, not lists of things that Wizards can do.

ErhnamDJ

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #322 on: May 31, 2009, 07:57:15 PM »
What do sample builds prove? What one wizard can do.

Spending five or six hours working up the uber-complex wizard with every possible contingency (heh) covered only to have the few people who would care squawk and say, "But that's just one wizard. This, that, and the other wouldn't even fly in a real game," does not sound like my idea of a fun time.

Most of my suggestions are met with, "No one would use/allow that."

Hell, I wouldn't even try and use some things for the undefeatable mastermind. Where do we draw the line? Do we pretend we can get everyone to agree? Surely we won't use Ice Assassin to get Alter Reality. But does Shapechange grant us cleric casting? Do we use the Thought Bottle?
« Last Edit: May 31, 2009, 08:17:21 PM by ErhnamDJ »

Negative Zero

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #323 on: May 31, 2009, 08:09:24 PM »
These are things we need to decide, but the entire point of the thread is to do things. Saying what Wizards can do has been going on since the beginning of 3.5. There isn't really anything that a Wizard can't deal with, but any Wizard only has so many actions, so many spells per day, and so many hit points. Sure, he can multiply them all and have ludicrous numbers, but they're still finite (probably). So all we really can do to get an accurate idea of what it takes to beat the caster is to first make a caster, and then try to beat it.

jameswilliamogle

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #324 on: June 01, 2009, 10:26:52 AM »
Weren't you listening? I don't care if they could. I want to know if they did. We want sample builds, not lists of things that Wizards can do.
Trying to argue this point w/ the above is pointless w/ certain members.  I've tried to goad them into putting up builds, and they've refused.  Forget about it.

juton

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #325 on: June 01, 2009, 11:36:59 AM »
Weren't you listening? I don't care if they could. I want to know if they did. We want sample builds, not lists of things that Wizards can do.
Trying to argue this point w/ the above is pointless w/ certain members.  I've tried to goad them into putting up builds, and they've refused.  Forget about it.

Its an ego thing, they don't want to spend six hours on a build only to have someone on these boards find a hole in it and beat it in thirty minutes. I think any Wizard build can be beat by a Fighter built to fight it specifically. I guess the debate will continue.

LadyLily

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #326 on: June 01, 2009, 12:59:52 PM »

juton

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #327 on: June 01, 2009, 01:04:17 PM »
Both of those have been beaten, the argument is that a real Wizard is even more powerful than either of those builds. How much more powerful, we don't know because as many have said we don't have any more builds.

juton

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #328 on: June 01, 2009, 01:27:03 PM »
Here's a question for anyone. Can an immediate action interupt a Contingent Spell going off? Say a caster has fallen and his contingent teleport is about to trigger, can we use an immediate action before he gets away?

ErhnamDJ

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #329 on: June 01, 2009, 02:35:23 PM »

  Well, I don't think the rules are very clear on the matter. What sort of result would you get if you used the most favorable ruling?

BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #330 on: June 01, 2009, 02:47:10 PM »
Favorable for the Wizard or the Wizard-killer? ;)
"Weakness? Come test thy mettle against me, hairless ape, and we shall know who is weak!"

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ErhnamDJ

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #331 on: June 01, 2009, 02:53:29 PM »

Eh, I don't think it's going to matter either way. They'll both have Immediate actions. Only, the wizard can have two familiars, each with another one. I actually prefer the Cerebremancer. That gets another immediate action thanks to the psicrystal. And then there's all the Contingencies on top of that.

But, hey, if you can find a way to do something to the wizard assuming your immediate action goes off before one of the Contingencies, I look forward to seeing it.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #332 on: June 01, 2009, 03:10:57 PM »
Both of those have been beaten
They have? I don't think anyone has beaten the crazy version of mine, have they? Maybe the Breaching Obelisk (or whatever it's called) idea that was put forth a while ago could.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

jseah

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #333 on: June 01, 2009, 03:14:00 PM »
I think I can summarize the outer defenses of the TO wizard: (by outer defenses, I mean those not inherent in his combat abilities)
 - These are most definitely not all his defenses.  Only what I see as his most pertinent ones. 

Physical location: Personal Demiplane, whole area is covered by Forbiddance, no portals
Mode of action: Astral Projection (has to drop Forbiddance for 1 round while using initializing spell)

Allies:
Familiar
Simulacrum (self) x2

Special:
Has a second personal plane of minimum size.  Is also Forbiddance-locked.  This 2nd plane is completely empty. 

Actions:
Simulacrum1 uses Contact Other Plane as many times per day as it has slots (it is a level 10 wizard, it has 5th level spells, which includes Contact Other Plane)
 - Uses question algorithm to find the current location of all possible threats (future threats and positions are impossible as I argue previously)
 - Question algorithm also determines if it is worthwhile ending the wizard's Astral Projection via dispel
 - Question algorithm is also able to dodge divination immunity and avoid ever triggering Vecna Blooded's ability

Simulacrum2 in under Astral Projection.  Projection is wandering around the Breaching Obelisk planar location, making it target the 2nd plane.  Breaching Obelisk's plane is also completely Forbiddance-locked. 
 - Projection has contingency active ready to area dispel itself (and end the projection spell) when encountering opposition beyond it's means to handle  (Area dispel prevents you from handing him a spellblade)
 - Destruction of Simulacrum2's projection causes Simulacrum2 to wake up inside the Demiplane and trigger "Code Red" alert
 - They wake up the wizard and have some time to prepare before the Breaching Obelisk can be aimed at his plane.  (since the Obelisk takes 8 hours and a DC40 check to aim)

* This debatable.  I think it might not be completely fair that the wizard gets the Breaching Obelisk location and the challenger doesn't.  Since Forbiddance-locking the Breaching Obelisk and making it point to a blank Forbiddance-locked demiplane effectively removes it from play. 
Although I'm sure in practice, the owner of the plane is likely to be a wizard. 

And if it's out, the only way in is via Plane Shift during the 1 round gap when he leaves.  And Contact Other Plane shenanigans means he won't leave it during any time that you're ready to do it.  (by interpreting current events as within 1 round)

*********************************************************************************************************

Tasks:

Find which demiplane he is on. 
Find his astral projection.  Kill it. 
Find out when he's going to cast Astral Projection. 
Plane Shift in during that 1 round that Forbiddance is dropped. 
Kill him / hunt him down if he runs. 

If him having the Obelisk at the start is not assumed:
Find which demiplane he is on. 
Make it to the Obelisk first and survive the wizard's attempts to get it from you. 
Breach his demiplane and run in. 
Kill him / hunt him down if he runs. 

********************************************************************************************************

If we aren't talking TO wizard, then kindly define the kind of wizard you want.  At what point does an optimized wizard get into TO territory?

Note that these defenses are quite achievable with only a few required spells that he would have anyway and some gold. 
Well, ok, not just some, quite a lot.  But should be well within budget of a level 20 character. 

jseah

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #334 on: June 01, 2009, 03:19:33 PM »
Just a thought.  The entry for Breaching Obelisk is listed as having dimensions (60x60x97 ft) and a material (astral driftmetal). 

Is it possible to destroy it?  Coz the wizard could attempt to blow it up (permanently) instead of worrying about it. 

Or perhaps he could move it to his own secondary demiplane.  For personal use and better security. 

juton

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #335 on: June 06, 2009, 12:27:03 PM »
While not a fighter build, I was thinking about using Blasphemy. Blasphemy banishes extraplanar (summoned?) creatures back to whence they came, and if you boost your CL not a lot of people are going to have a viable defense. Of course his contingencies will trigger, if we can get some immediate action (Archivist with Celerity) we could potentially act before he is teleported / healed / whatever.

jseah

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #336 on: June 07, 2009, 11:27:46 AM »
Blasphemy at high CL is a no-save insta-kill spell.  I don't think banishment really comes into play.  But in any case, the wizard probably started play as a lowly level 1 wizard somewhere on the Prime Material. 

Does he qualify for extraplanar?

juton

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #337 on: June 07, 2009, 11:53:28 AM »
Blasphemy at high CL is a no-save insta-kill spell.  I don't think banishment really comes into play.  But in any case, the wizard probably started play as a lowly level 1 wizard somewhere on the Prime Material. 

Does he qualify for extraplanar?

I should have spelt out the scenario happening in my head more. Lets say we give the Wizard the first action and he gates in creatures. Or he travels with summoned creatures for bodyguards. A good blasphemy can immobilize the Wizard and banish his minions. You have to hold your immediate action until just after the blasphemy activates, so his contingencies can't help him.

Endarire

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #338 on: October 10, 2009, 04:35:27 AM »
Save so I can find this!
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

KellKheraptis

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Re: Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster
« Reply #339 on: October 10, 2009, 04:56:20 AM »
Actually, a good TO wizard will have epic spell capability at 20th level, either via SCM goodness or access to a mythal.  Either way, a TO wizard will definitely have a mythal, and that means even if he does go personally, he's got a million and one action abuses built in.  Furthermore, at least in the case of my TO Ultimate Mage, not only does he have the above, but he has 20th level spell slots at CL 40, and access to Su Miracles, meaning every spell/power/maneuver in the game at will.  As I mentioned before, even the trademark Hand of Death SDA can't autohose this dude, let alone a lowly Holy Word at CL NI.  Access to divine magic means HP damage/death is out too.  The various immunity spells means no energy damage, and taking on the half-force dragon template takes away one of the last types that most creatures aren't immune to.  All of this can be done with spells, and legally within the rules.

Now for actions...assuming a familiar, a cohort, an animal companion, and up to what, CL sims, just from class features/spells/feats alone the Ultimate Mage has an entire army worth of extra actions.  All those Sims are capable of celerity interrupts, and also Craft Contingent Spell, let alone actual contingency as well.  And since they are an expendable resource, they most likely are commanded to have them keyed to the UM.  Throw in Ice Assassin, a Clone or five, and a contingent mythal, cast at the time right after his went up, to trigger in the highly unlikely event he was caught.  In the event he's interacting at all, his sim won't even be talking through its astral projection, but through a projected image of itself.  If it believes it can handle the threat, it will dispatch the nuisance itself, without losing the PI if possible, and in person properly buffed as need be.  Also, that Sim doesn't even need to be of him.  Ever wanted a non-dispellable, non-banishable Pit Fiend?  Or Solar?  Get creative ;)  Sim Tarrasque door guards, and one as a pet riding dog?  Sure!  Sim dragons as gargoyles on the extraplanar abodes?  Why not!  Sim of someone who put up a decent fight and actually required your direct involvement?  Definitely, and possibly a properly seeded and contingencied to hell Clone even, to insure obedience.  There was a reason I said in the killing gods thread that a well prepared wizard, even nonepic, still stands a good chance against an epic wizard and even against a god.  They are just that hard to touch when their defenses are in turtle mode.

Hopefully this puts things into perspective, and I invite any would-be mage-slayer to have a look at me, Joda, and TML's work on my Ultimate Mage thread (also, I owe a good deal of that build's inspiration to Doc Rock).  If you can drop that, you can drop pretty much anything, IMO.
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