Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster

[jameswilliamogle]

This is getting hawt...   

[Tshern]

Naturally it is smart to make sure the Wizard cannot detect you once you get in. Superior invisibility helps you to get over pretty much everything expect True seeing and Mindsight. The former only has 120 feet range and the latter requires the Wizard to either to take a prestige class or rely on Shapechange or its cousins and that severely limits the amount of forms that can be used.

[ErhnamDJ]

Pseudodragon familiar grants mindsight. So, that's easy.

[PhaedrusXY]

And how is any of this preventing the wizard to know how to counter the attacker's tactics by using Contact Other Plane? Because the attacking guy also used Contact Other Plane?

I'm not really sure how to figure out how the two spells would interact... Theoretically, each should fully incorporate the other's predictions, and still be entirely true... I think it is impossible to analyze this in the abstract. We'd have to get into very specific questions to really determine outcomes. Or just write if off as too complex, and give up on this as an intractable problem. I don't think we can just hand waive it away, either, and say that they nullify each other. They don't. They both have to be true, according to the rules. So at best I think we can get a draw here.

Good idea with Metafaculty, though. I think you could in theory get as much information (or more) using Contact Other Plane, but Metafaculty is much more straightforward. It would be something that any high level Psion would employ right "out of the box", instead of being a specific outlier than likely never sees use in a game (like we're using Contact Other Plane). So I think arguably we could say that it would be likely that a typical high level moderately optimized psion could quite possibly find and destroy the typical high level moderately optimized wizard, because the psion is a lot more likely to be using Metafaculty than the wizard is to be using complicated Contact Other Plane shenanigans. The psion is also very likely to have access to Psychic Reformation, so he can customize his powers known and feats to take advantage of any vulnerabilities that Metafaculty reveals. Of course, this costs quite a bit of XP, but the payoff is worth it.

But that's not really a non-caster vs. a caster, in my book.

[jameswilliamogle]

Naturally it is smart to make sure the Wizard cannot detect you once you get in. Superior invisibility helps you to get over pretty much everything expect True seeing and Mindsight. The former only has 120 feet range and the latter requires the Wizard to either to take a prestige class or rely on Shapechange or its cousins and that severely limits the amount of forms that can be used.

The Barbinder gets through this by creeping up on the guy while Ethereal with Mindblank on (Chupoclops, Haures).  Since See Invisibility / Trueseeing et al are divination, Mindblank foils them (although its weird).

[ErhnamDJ]

Since See Invisibility / Trueseeing et al are divination, Mindblank foils them (although its weird).

Okay, so how do you ever see the wizard, then?

[jameswilliamogle]

Since See Invisibility / Trueseeing et al are divination, Mindblank foils them (although its weird).

Okay, so how do you ever see the wizard, then?

No need.  Superior Knowledge checks + Contact Other Plane + (now) Metafaculty.  Ask questions about oneself (as in, what plane should I be on?, etc).  Plus, Ethereal creatures can see into the material.

Put up a build.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Since See Invisibility / Trueseeing et al are divination, Mindblank foils them (although its weird).

Okay, so how do you ever see the wizard, then?

No need.  Superior Knowledge checks + Contact Other Plane + (now) Metafaculty.  Ask questions about oneself (as in, what plane should I be on?, etc).  Plus, Ethereal creatures can see into the material.

Put up a build.

He isn't on the material plane, though.  He's on his own demiplane.

[altpersona]

high bardic knowlege? for wiz info?

[ErhnamDJ]

He isn't on the material plane, though.  He's on his own demiplane.

I think everyone agreed they couldn't beat that one, so now we're trying to beat one that's out and about.

But, yeah, he should still have a clone stashed away somewhere, and a simulacrum with a scroll of True Res with instructions to bring him on back.

The title is beating the caster, not killing him.

[jseah]

The Breaching Obelisk allows one to redirect a planar breach with a DC 40 Knowledge Check, IIRC.  That should be just about simple. 

Planar Breach the demiplane and you're in. 

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The thing about the Contact Other Plane shenanigans is that two of them (or two of similar effects) will affect each other's answers. 
Let's say we can conclusively prove that, no matter what the strategy used by A is, if Contact Other Plane tells B about it, B can counter and kill A. 
If B and A represent our challenger and Wizard interchangeably, (meaning they can be either A or B and the statement holds true), then whatever answer Contact Other Plane gives, the other guy's Contact Other Plane will have to give a false answer.  (The question as to which strategy to use will have to be false)

Since both must give true answers, the only possible answer is "not computable".  Regardless of the amount of computational power available to Contact Other Plane (however many nested infinities), the clashing of the two used against each other means neither can give a true answer. 
 - This was part of the reason why I said such spells violates Information Theory.  After this reasoning, I'm going one step further to say they violate the basic axioms of logic as well.  At the level of A != A. 

[JaronK]

Except that assumes perfect execution of the CoP algorithm, which is likely impossible.  Thus, the winner there would be the smarter of the duelists, or the one who understands the situation better (higher Int, higher Wis).  Of course, the Wizard is going to have a stellar Int, so he's tough to beat in that respect.

JaronK

[altpersona]

for my money thats the winning difference..

the wiz is going to have more of everything needed... access to anything, on a whim. the time, brains and wisdom to plan it all out... A team be damned..

[Negative Zero]

This is a TO wizard. Either his Wisdom is crap, or it's NI.

[altpersona]

TO wis and int both are Ni.. or at least obscene..

[jseah]

Except that assumes perfect execution of the CoP algorithm, which is likely impossible. 

It's not.  Especially when you ask it to give you the perfect algorithm.  XD

Nah, just the possibility of someone asking for the perfect algorithm and using it is enough to prevent all uses of Contact Other Plane that see the future. 

Unless all castings of the spell that involve a particular time frame are such that their answers do not clash.  More than unlikely if it's used offensively. 

[altpersona]

dont you have a NI number of methods for testing /getting the right "The Question (now called TQ)"?

furthermore, based on established wotc (retarded) standards, shoulnt we just have an Int/Wis/skill check to cover the ability to work out TQ.... something over 60 should do, with taking 10 to get 100 being fairly good..

is it just a matter of that check in a vs situation... if thats the case its a draw, leaning toward failure (thanks entropy)...

[ReaderOfPosts]

But that's not really a non-caster vs. a caster, in my book.

[jseah]

Mindblank doesn't protect from indirect information gathering.  See pg10 for outline of possible questions. 

As they say, "If you know a certain area of space to infinite accuracy, since everything affects everything else, then you can work out exactly what everything else is.  "

[Negative Zero]

In other words, you may not know that the cold-subtype guy will show up at the front door in ten minutes, but you know that in 600 seconds, the door will open and that it would be profitable for you to launch a fireball at the door in 601 seconds.