Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster

[PhaedrusXY]

That's a weaksauce wizard build...

The builds were intentionally kept generic and without PrCs (except for the Loremaster alternative I made) and alternative class features, just so that people couldn't argue that it wasn't really the wizard that beat them, it was X PrC or Y ACF.

[ErhnamDJ]

Everyone and their mother has fifteen different ways to avoid grapples.

Trying to get close to someone is probably the only way you could open yourself to being killed. I'm pretty sure the Mystra cleric pwns your face there. He casts AMF. You have to get away RIGHT THEN. You go back and forth on Contingencies. Cleric should have a familiar (only takes two feats for a cleric to get one) too, so that's out.

Cleric wins the war over the AMF here. It's his turn and the wizard will have to use one of his Contingencies first. Did he spend any on his turn when he ran up to hug the cleric?

Okay, AMF hits. There's time between when the AMF hits the dome and when the wizard gains cover. It has to fall. While the dome is falling, the wizard has no magic. The cleric still does. Yeah, I think that equals a dead wizard. Quickened Uberdeath To The Face!

There are ways to kill the wizard. If he runs up and hugs someone.

I think that's the way it happens, is it not? I guess the wizard could have a ton of teleports as Contingencies. The combinations for the Contingencies would make it complicated. Hmm... does the cleric just get Miracle a bunch?

Edit: Craft Contingent is retarded. What were they thinking? It completely eliminates non-casters from this competition.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Clerics are casters.

[ErhnamDJ]

Yeah. I was just pointing out that he's opened himself to being killed with that grappling idea.

Does anyone have an idea how to beat Craft Contingent? Maybe some way to approach the wizard without his knowledge? How can we do that?

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Maybe some way to approach the wizard without his knowledge? How can we do that?

Offhand, I don't know of anything that can really counter a good set of Contact Other Plane queries.  You might want to look for wondrous architecture... I think there might be something useful in the SBG...

[PhaedrusXY]

Does anyone have an idea how to beat Craft Contingent? Maybe some way to approach the wizard without his knowledge? How can we do that?

If you could hit him with a MDJ, they would all go bye-bye wouldn't they? Are they considered magic items or permanent spells? I forget. The latter are automatically dispelled/destroyed by a MDJ.

But yeah, Craft Contingent Spell is one of the most ridiculously overpowered things in the books. That's why many of us have been ignoring it, instead of insisting on using it at every available opportunity... If you use it, whoever has the best Contingencies wins.

[ErhnamDJ]

I think there might be something useful in the SBG...

I've looked through everything in there five times. Nada.

[jseah]

+1 trick for the wizard here: (do forgive the shameless plug =P)

http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1173555&page=8

This is page 8 on a particular thread on this related forum.  I posted a way for enough divination questions to be able to pierce any sort of detection immunity.  Some modifications are needed for it to work from completely no starting information but it's easily possible. 

Wizard just needs enough Divination/Contact Other Planes/similar divination effect going off at the same time.  And an efficient question algorithm. 

Note that other information besides position can be gained through asking for hypothetical observers. 

The problem with Divination Immunity is that the divination fails.  Or otherwise indicates a result that would not have occurred had the spell worked normally. 
This tells the wizard he hit something that could potentially be dangerous and makes him take out his backup multi-question plan. 

[ErhnamDJ]

Ah, that is quite interesting. Would it be possible to construct one long run-on sentence with multiple parts that would get you all the information squeezed into one answer? It only gives one word answers, but with an infinite combination of words available (it makes no mention of word length), we should be able to accomplish it all with one question, yes? With enough forethought (Int 38) and enough effort put into creating The Question, the entire multiverse in its infinite complexity can be revealed with only one casting of the spell.

Huh. That's kinda powerful. We can even create a new word whose meaning is The Question, so we won't have to speak the infinite thing every time we need it cast.

[JaronK]

So, I think the Love's Pain trick is the most obvious way to do this, with the only difficulty being actually being able to fire the spell fast enough to kill the Wizard quickly.  Maximized the spell only does 60 damage (untyped and unresistable) and you need to be able to Mindrape a commoner into loving the Wizard, but if you could get your own flowing time Genesis plane to do it in you could fire fast enough to get the job done so fast that the Wizard can't do much.  Unfortunately, Genesis is a Wizard 9 spell, and it defeats the purpose to have a Wizard do this, so I propose a Spellthief 14/Mindbender 1/Shadowcraft Mage 5 for the job, with Master Spellthief and the usual SCM lineup of feats.  Now, to get that first Genesis he'd need to steal a spell from a 9th level caster of some kind, but since it's Conjuration he could cast it his own spell (Shadow Genesis via Heightened Silent Image), so really he could borrow it from a friendly cast who he pays for.  The next question is whether Love's Pain, a corrupt spell, counts as being on the Wizard/Sorcerer list... all Wizards can cast it, though, so it makes some sense.  If it is, now you can blast away with it as a Shadow spell, and it's still resisted only by the commoner.  You can do it at hyper speed too.

Not a perfect solution, because while the Spellthief is a weak class it's really the Shadowcraft Mage PrC that's doing the primary thing, but it might have a shot.  Or, you know, 100 shots... if your plane moves faster than the Wizard's.  Just a thought.

JaronK

[PhaedrusXY]

Contact Other Plane should be able to beat this, I think. Using even the simple line of questioning I was suggesting, it will let you know you need to cast a Minor Globe of Invulnerability at 6 PM on Thursday to keep Bob Smith from killing you. Then you proceed to nuke Bob Smith into oblivion via whatever means you want.

[jseah]

Huh. That's kinda powerful. We can even create a new word whose meaning is The Question, so we won't have to speak the infinite thing every time we need it cast.

Or simply ask:

"What is the final answer to this algorithm if a logical observer that operates at infinite speed manages to perform it using the Divination spell for each question?"

A cheap way to get multiple questions with 1 question if all the answers you actually need is the last one.  

Just have the book's algorithm be:

The algorithm as presented is to be interpreted as the holder of this book would interpret it at his best mental condition.  
Define "I" as the person holding this book

1. Will the question about the current location of the person to next attack me fail?
If no, then,
 - What is the current location of the next person to attack me as expressed in Kauvper's Planar Coordinate System?
 - End Algorithm
If yes, then go to 2:

2. Is the failure of spell due to error on my part?
If yes, then,
 - How is the string of letters "E1" pronounced?
 - End Algorithm
If no, go to 3:

3 to X. <various checks>
-- E(number) means an error returned on a certain step.  

Define Location.Large as coordinate volume
X+1. At which Coordinate Volume will my location be when I am next attacked? (this question bypasses divination immunity as it's not about them)
Location.Large = Answer

Define FirstStrike.Direction as coordinate direction
X+2. What is the coordinate of the first target, which is not my attacker, to be hit with an attack?
FirstStrike.Direction = Answer

X+3. Am I the originator of the attack mentioned in the previous question?
If <...>
etc.

[Tshern]

The Wizard could also simply Shapechange into a Zodar immediately when he takes damages. From that point on the only kind of damage that effects him is bludgeoning damage. Spell immunities, Globes of invulnerabilities and such work as well.

[jameswilliamogle]

Iff Wizard is in shapechanged Dire Tortoise, then so can UMD user.  Both can have Celerity.  Both can have Craft Contingent Spells.  Its a wash.  UMD user can use Contact Outer Plane as well to find out when they should have their buffs running, and what those buffs need to be, as well (Binder can use Divination to get very specific information once per round instead of spending UMD stuff).

Some other notes:
Wizard can't have Mindblank and Foresight running, which prevents Celerity casting against Insta-Rage (Mindblank prevents Foresight which prevents Celerity usage, or Foresight allows for the Insta-rage to go off). 

Wizard needs to not be flat-footed in the surprise round to beat Insta-Rage.  Dire Tortoise form does not beat Insta-rage, on its own.  As far as I can tell, only Vecna-Blooded, Legacy Weapon, and a Haures bound Anima Mage would work.  If Wizard has to resort to obscure Vecna-blooded or Weapons of Legacy stuff to win, I consider that a win, anyways (heh, like any Wizard has ever played a build with any of that crap).

For the Zodar stuff - anything after the first round doesn't matter, for AMF shenanigans (excluding Invoke Magic).

Invoke Magic is an issue, still...  Leadership for a Spellthief in there, in yer AMF stealin yer spellz?

Anyways, I do thank the further discussion.  Still, everyone is caster-centric, which I find biased.  But, oh well.

[jseah]

Contact Other Plane and Divination spells, if carefully worded, will tell you when you need to do certain things. 

The problem is adjudicating how two people casting these spells against each other will interact.  It's like exploring all possible routes the battle could go and then picking the best course of action for both people. 

I have a feeling that if both sides were able to counter each other if they knew what the other was doing, both Divinations used to predict the future would return "Don't attack" and it'll be a draw. 

[juton]

<SNIP>
1. Will the question about the current location of the person to next attack me fail?
If no, then,
 - What is the current location of the next person to attack me as expressed in Kauvper's Planar Coordinate System?
 - End Algorithm
If yes, then go to 2:

2. Is the failure of spell due to error on my part?
If yes, then,
 - How is the string of letters "E1" pronounced?
 - End Algorithm
If no, go to 3:

3 to X. <various checks>
-- E(number) means an error returned on a certain step.  

I think, maybe, just maybe we've strayed into TO territory. Which is fine, so long as everyone knows about it. Out of the gamers I've meet, if you gave each one a 20th level Wizard about 2/3rds of them would fill it's 9th level slots with Meteor Swarm or maximized evocations. Point is that in the wild a smart player will have some but not all of the tricks we've discussed in this thread. So let's not try and make a Fighter who can overcome everything but just overcome a lot of things.

Right now we know the (near) Ultimate Caster has his own plane and travels around as a dire tortoise. What's the best we can do with a non-caster class?  The only really effective fighter build I'm really familiar with is Jack B. Quick, what else do the fighter aficionados have in their corner in the way of builds?

[PhaedrusXY]

Iff Wizard is in shapechanged Dire Tortoise, then so can UMD user.  Both can have Celerity.  Both can have Craft Contingent Spells.  Its a wash. 

I'm not so sure about that. If the wizard's contingency makes it so that the binder can't harm him (he Teleports away), then the wizard can send summoned minions to kill the Binder while on the run (and only acting while inside Timestops, if necessary). So the wizard wins here, unless the Binder's Contingencies somehow prevent the wizard's Contingencies from going off.

I realize this is oversimplified, but trying to have a bunch of nested Contingencies to counter/interrupt the other guy's nested Contingencies is preposterously complicated. Especially if both are using Contact Other Plane shenanigans to plan which Contingencies to use...

Wizard needs to not be flat-footed in the surprise round to beat Insta-Rage.  Dire Tortoise form does not beat Insta-rage, on its own.  As far as I can tell, only Vecna-Blooded, Legacy Weapon, and a Haures bound Anima Mage would work.  If Wizard has to resort to obscure Vecna-blooded or Weapons of Legacy stuff to win, I consider that a win, anyways (heh, like any Wizard has ever played a build with any of that crap).

Would walking around as a minotaur allow the wizard to beat the Insta-Rage trick? I don't consider that too crazy...

For the Zodar stuff - anything after the first round doesn't matter, for AMF shenanigans (excluding Invoke Magic).

Invoke Magic is an issue, still...  Leadership for a Spellthief in there, in yer AMF stealin yer spellz?

lol

Anyways, I do thank the further discussion.  Still, everyone is caster-centric, which I find biased.  But, oh well.

I've no doubt that I'm probably biased. I am quite impressed at just how deadly the things you've come up with are, though. They would definitely trounce most casters I've actually played. (Maybe not all, though ).

[jseah]

I think, maybe, just maybe we've strayed into TO territory. Which is fine, so long as everyone knows about it. Out of the gamers I've meet, if you gave each one a 20th level Wizard about 2/3rds of them would fill it's 9th level slots with Meteor Swarm or maximized evocations. Point is that in the wild a smart player will have some but not all of the tricks we've discussed in this thread. So let's not try and make a Fighter who can overcome everything but just overcome a lot of things.

I believe that there was an easy challenger. 

And isn't the genesis plane itself already TO?  I figured that for that case, I could pull out all stops and make a pseudo-programming language. 


For a straight 20 wiz, I wouldn't be prepping many evocations.  Perhaps if I was Incantatrix/Red Wizard. 

Then again, my idea of normal play is nowhere near normal in case you hadn't figured that out from that post you quoted.  XD  And I haven't played a single melee character before, as a player at least.  (I just hate melee, personal preference thing)

[Tshern]

Iff Wizard is in shapechanged Dire Tortoise, then so can UMD user.  Both can have Celerity.  Both can have Craft Contingent Spells.  Its a wash.  UMD user can use Contact Outer Plane as well to find out when they should have their buffs running, and what those buffs need to be, as well (Binder can use Divination to get very specific information once per round instead of spending UMD stuff).

Wizard gets most of that stuff for free while the UMD fellow has to spend decent amounts of wealth for this and he really has to succeed with his first go at it.

Some other notes:
Wizard can't have Mindblank and Foresight running, which prevents Celerity casting against Insta-Rage (Mindblank prevents Foresight which prevents Celerity usage, or Foresight allows for the Insta-rage to go off). 

Minotaurs are never flat-footed, so Foresight is not necessarily needed.

Wizard needs to not be flat-footed in the surprise round to beat Insta-Rage.  Dire Tortoise form does not beat Insta-rage, on its own.  As far as I can tell, only Vecna-Blooded, Legacy Weapon, and a Haures bound Anima Mage would work.  If Wizard has to resort to obscure Vecna-blooded or Weapons of Legacy stuff to win, I consider that a win, anyways (heh, like any Wizard has ever played a build with any of that crap).

Enter minotaur. Agreed on the issues of Vecna-blooded and Weapons of Legacy.

For the Zodar stuff - anything after the first round doesn't matter, for AMF shenanigans (excluding Invoke Magic).

It was aimed against JaronK's idea of using Love's pain from a demiplane.

Anyways, I do thank the further discussion.  Still, everyone is caster-centric, which I find biased.  But, oh well.

Just trying to shoot down ideas I think won't work. Haven't really followed the thread, so I had to start somewhere, I don't really care who wins.

[jameswilliamogle]

insightful commentary

Yes, I think Minotaur form is more reasonable, too (for the equivalent of Foresight).  There is the issue of beating the AMF.

BTW - something stupid - you can't cast Invoke Magic inside of a AMF, lol!  Poor wording...  The effect allows one to cast a spell L4 and lower, but the spell description doesn't say that it can be cast in an AMF or Dead Magic zone!  (I realize that is way, way against the RAI, though, so I won't belabor that being a real issue.)