Anti-caster build ideas 3: Beating the Caster

[PhaedrusXY]

Knowing the wizard's name could potentially be useful.  Once you've got his name, you can find his parents, siblings, 3rd grade teachers, high school sweetheart, etc.  Hopefully at least 1 person the wizard cares about isn't a high level mage as well.  Then, when the wizard takes some action to try and rescue them (even if it isn't actually leaving his demiplane), you might be able to find an opening.

Of course, being a necropolitan, there's a good chance all of the wizard's associates are long dead, or are undead themselves...

This might work, depending on how old and/or paranoid the wizard is. He can also have his demiplane make it so that he never ages (using the Astral as an example again) while there. So he could in fact be ancient without being undead. He still might have people he cares about, though. But yeah, if he's going around as an Astral Projection and using all the abusive stuff I suggested, at most you'd probably just piss him off. Then he'd come kill you (in Astral form), and have his pet similacrum resurrect his friends for free.

Against a less crazy wizard version (sans demiplane and epic similacrum), this might work.

[Ithamar]

At some point this challenge has to move past pure mechanics / number crunching if the non-caster is going to have a chance of winning.  Probably my fault for looking at this more like how I would run it as an adventure, with an attainable goal, if I were the DM.  You have to give the PC's some chance.

[PhaedrusXY]

Yeah, as far as my point in this whole thing, it isn't to make it "winnable" for the non-caster.

I have two goals:
1) See if we can make a wizard that is truly unassailable (particularly by non-casters, or at least non-full casters).
2) See if we can make non-caster builds that can have a good chance of taking out "normal" wizards.

So far, I think the answer is yes to both of those.

[jameswilliamogle]

Yeah, as far as my point in this whole thing, it isn't to make it "winnable" for the non-caster.

I have two goals:
1) See if we can make a wizard that is truly unassailable (particularly by non-casters, or at least non-full casters).
2) See if we can make non-caster builds that can have a good chance of taking out "normal" wizards.

So far, I think the answer is yes to both of those.

We definitely have met those two goals, imo.  Unfortunately, its much harder to "prove" the former (since any possible combination that could exist disproves it).

[dark_samuari]

At some point this challenge has to move past pure mechanics / number crunching if the non-caster is going to have a chance of winning.  Probably my fault for looking at this more like how I would run it as an adventure, with an attainable goal, if I were the DM.  You have to give the PC's some chance.

I've kind of been looking at this challenge and phrasing it as, 'How would you beat Dr. Manhattan?" Realistically that's the scenario here, so I see the unconventional and downright insane having the only shot of succeeding. I agree that you have to move past any type of mechanics/number reliance but move into the more philosophical/spiritual side of this challenge. I've currently been trying to toying with ideas revolving around making the wizard obsolete.

A good example would be the Merlin mini-series staring Sam Niel and how he defeats Queen Mab. 

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Yeah, as far as my point in this whole thing, it isn't to make it "winnable" for the non-caster.

I have two goals:
1) See if we can make a wizard that is truly unassailable (particularly by non-casters, or at least non-full casters).
2) See if we can make non-caster builds that can have a good chance of taking out "normal" wizards.

So far, I think the answer is yes to both of those.

We definitely have met those two goals, imo.  Unfortunately, its much harder to "prove" the former (since any possible combination that could exist disproves it).

Especially since Pun-Pun is possible with non-casters... it really depends on the cheese available.

[Tshern]

Yeah, as far as my point in this whole thing, it isn't to make it "winnable" for the non-caster.

I have two goals:
1) See if we can make a wizard that is truly unassailable (particularly by non-casters, or at least non-full casters).
2) See if we can make non-caster builds that can have a good chance of taking out "normal" wizards.

So far, I think the answer is yes to both of those.

We definitely have met those two goals, imo.  Unfortunately, its much harder to "prove" the former (since any possible combination that could exist disproves it).

Especially since Pun-Pun is possible with non-casters... it really depends on the cheese available.

Everything is with Leadership, you can always get a virtually unlimited number of cohorts with unlimited class levels with the old Psicrystal trick.

[jameswilliamogle]

Bump.

I think the discussion of this and the other thread is just too freakin' good to let completely fall to obscurity.

One thing I noticed, rereading through the whole thread - this is the anti-caster thread, and there's only 3 builds.  Almost everything goes back to optimizing the caster.  Is this an indicator that CO may be in a bit of a rut?  "Casters pwn everything, :. I'm only going to try to optimize one"?  Just a thought...  I'm not trying to provoke a fight.

[ReaderOfPosts]

Bump.

I think the discussion of this and the other thread is just too freakin' good to let completely fall to obscurity.

One thing I noticed, rereading through the whole thread - this is the anti-caster thread, and there's only 3 builds.  Almost everything goes back to optimizing the caster.  Is this an indicator that CO may be in a bit of a rut?  "Casters pwn everything, :. I'm only going to try to optimize one"?  Just a thought...  I'm not trying to provoke a fight.

I think it's more a matter of the nature of the competition. It's not enough to beat a full caster, you have to be able to beat a perfectly played one, or else you're just exploiting something the caster forgot to do.

[jameswilliamogle]

I think its more of what I mentioned - we don't think along the lines of what the non-caster can do, so we don't try.  Only 2 posters tried to post on the non-caster side regularly.  To me, there is a flaw in the communal mentality...

[ErhnamDJ]

we don't think along the lines of what the non-caster can do

What can the non-caster do in the face of multiple Contingencies, Celerity spells, and a familiar with more of the same?

I'm trying to think of something, but coming up with nothing.

The way I see it is: Non-caster has: some stuff.

Caster has: the same stuff as the non-caster, plus spells (the ability to warp reality to his whim).

Now, maybe there are some feats or prestige class abilities out there that make this an even fight between the two (or at least a fight that gives the non-caster a chance, maybe puts some die rolls in the equation). But... I've never seen them.

If those things existed, we would think about them.

The wizard pretty much has an ability that reads: "Immunity to everything except deities with Divine Rank 6 or higher."

If we could find a way to get through Dimension Lock, it might be possible to come up with something, but whatever it is will involve 40+ Contingencies.

And at that point, can we really call it a 'non-caster?'

[jameswilliamogle]

But what exactly are the obstacles to overcome?  Without defining the problem, we can't tackle the solution.  The whole thread was a kind of dismissively geared towards "non-caster has no chance".  Its written into the subtext.  That was my point, really.

[Suzerain]

Is it just me, or is this analogous to the Iron Siege? I.e. some ultra-paranoid being locking itself up in an unassailable plane (cause that's what the Iron Tower is, isn't it). Also, Dispater is played as a PC in a way; he has lots of resources and is immune to diplomacy. Of course, the Iron Siege is different in that we simply don't know what exactly is up against us, and thus cannot find the optimal way by analysing the conditions, but must use trial-and-error.

I think the reason why this discussion is caster-centric is both because of the mindset and because of reality. Reality says: Paranoid caster isn't going to be beat by anything not substantially more powerful than himself, or specially built to kill the former. The mindset comes into play where everybody tried to beat the ultra-paranoid caster in the first place (at least I understood it that way). Why is nobody trying for the easier picks?

Btw. I just thought about a side-effect of breaking the action economy with Genesis: Apart from vecna-blooded, most divinations have a casting time of longer than 1 round. If the wizard on that plane sets the time trait to 360:1, he can do in 1 round of real time what others do in 1 hour. And so on. So by the time you use metafaculty (or similar), it's already over. I think we could dismiss the time trait trick and the ultra-paranoid no-name Wizard will still be unassailable.

Now for some ideas on how to kill said Uber-Wizard: A Cleric with Initiate of Mystra could get through AMFs and dead magic zones. He could probably find a way to make the epic escape artist check (though does that apply to prismatic walls? otherwise, that strategy is useless). Then he'd still have to deal with the Wizard and some of his minions, though. It'd probably best to be mindblanked and invisible in that case.

Alternatively, wish can get one into the plane.

Transport travelers. A wish can lift one creature per caster level from anywhere on any plane and place those creatures anywhere else on any plane regardless of local conditions. An unwilling target gets a Will save to negate the effect, and spell resistance (if any) applies.

Emphasis mine. Even if that doesn't work, Greater Wish can do anything. If we allow Contingencies to be worded in a complex way that always works, Wish should get the same benefit. Even if that doesn't work, you could always burn some XP and create a permanent portal to the Demiplane.

Not sure what my point was anymore... 

[BowenSilverclaw]

And the Cleric is a full caster...


I thought this was about using non-casters to defeat casters?

[Suzerain]

And I thought this has degenerated into a "How to kill the theoretical Wizard, period". Also, the first post mentions beating him with a Cleric would get 0pts because of tier, but might get points simply for beating the theoretical Wiz in the first place.

[jameswilliamogle]

I think the reason why this discussion is caster-centric is both because of the mindset and because of reality. Reality says: Paranoid caster isn't going to be beat by anything not substantially more powerful than himself, or specially built to kill the former. The mindset comes into play where everybody tried to beat the ultra-paranoid caster in the first place (at least I understood it that way).

I'm willing to accept that; part reality / part mentality ingrained into us.  I think that, rereading all these posts last night, the attitude felt much more like the latter, not so much the former.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

It's not enough to beat a full caster, you have to be able to beat a perfectly played one, or else you're just exploiting something the caster forgot to do.

I have no problem with random for-fun builds that are good against non-optimized casters, but any mention of a 'hey if you go this route it can still be playable against casters' receives boos and hisses around here...

Why is nobody trying for the easier picks?

Exactly

Does wish or burning XP to create a permanent portal to the Demiplane actually work?

[PhaedrusXY]

The updated demi-plane has no Wall of Force or adjacent dead magic demi-plane. There is no way to enter it without dimensional travel, and it is covered by a Forbiddance spell which blocks most (all?) of that. You could try to gank the wizard's astral projection, and then time your entry into his demi-plane to when he is leaving again via Astral Projection. He has to drop the Forbiddance to do that. I'm sure it would be possible for him to come up with a way to do that during a Time Stop or something, but it is not trivial and not included currently.

I don't really believe Wish would work, either. If you go with that line of thinking, you could also use it to bypass a Deity's control over who enters their personal demesne. I'm not really sure what the point of that line in Wish was, though.Even if you buy that it lets you ignore any "conditions" which might block planar travel, how do you decide which trumps the other? The spell that says it blocks all dimensional travel, or the one that says it ignores local conditions (whatever that means)? The first is very specific, and the latter is so general as to mean nothing (or include everything). And don't say "Wish is higher level", because that doesn't really mean much in D&D. Defensive spells in D&D commonly block much higher level spells, such as Protection from Evil blocking Magic Jar, etc.

I think the ultra-paranoid wizard sitting in his demi-plane is too much of an extreme example, anyway. How many games would allow something like that? I originally had a much more toned down version, but everyone kept referencing the crazy one. It is definitely squarely in TO territory. Heck, I've held back on what is theoretically possible with that one, even. I didn't include Craft Contingent Spell (because it is a headache), or say his demi-plane's time trait is 1000 years per round (because it is ridiculous), for example.

And does Initiate of Mystra actually let you cast inside a dead magic zone? I thought it only worked vs AMF. Dead Magic zones are more severe than that. The weave does not exist in them, and hence I don't see how even Mystra herself could allow someone to cast inside one.


I also commented on the similarity between this and the Iron Siege a while back.

[Suzerain]

Wish and Miracle are generally considered to be the most powerful spells of all (in terms of power of effect; them requiring 5000XP as component puts a damper on regular usage). Greater Wish and Miracle are very open-ended and I maintain that the same complexity of wording needed for contigencies or contact other plane is needed for Greater Wish. As for Greater Miracle, I think traveling to an otherwise unreachable plane is in line with the listed examples (given how difficult those examples would be to accomplish otherwise).

As for TO, the only dealbreakers your wizard employs are flowing time trait (did we agree to discount that or not?) and Contact Other Plane. If Contact Other Plane were only used for spell selection, it might be possible to substitute that with Magelord (or other ways to make the wizard cast spontaneously). I actually consider the shrink item trick to defeat AMFs TO. If I were DMing, your neck would break once the cone expands Well, maybe.

And does Initiate of Mystra actually let you cast inside a dead magic zone? I thought it only worked vs AMF. Dead Magic zones are more severe than that. The weave does not exist in them, and hence I don't see how even Mystra herself could allow someone to cast inside one.

The text of the feat specifically states it lets one cast in a dead magic zone (CL check to beat DC 20 + spell you try to cast).

edit: Oh, and I was wrong about portals. To create one, astral travel needs to be enabled. Too bad...

[PhaedrusXY]

As for TO, the only dealbreakers your wizard employs are flowing time trait (did we agree to discount that or not?) and Contact Other Plane. If Contact Other Plane were only used for spell selection, it might be possible to substitute that with Magelord (or other ways to make the wizard cast spontaneously).

He has Uncanny Forethought, as well, which allows quite a bit of spontaneous casting itself.

I actually consider the shrink item trick to defeat AMFs TO. If I were DMing, your neck would break once the cone expands Well, maybe.

Pshh, whatever. It doesn't even touch his head. I think this objection is pretty ridiculous, anyway. I don't think this even comes close to TO, but I would agree that not everyone would come up with it independently, so it might not be a good example of "generic uber-wizard tactics". It is hardly necessary, anyway. There is an Invoke Magic spell that lets you cast inside an AMF, should you need to. You could easily replace this with that. Most of the time AMFs are useless for offense, anyway.