remember the iron siege?

[Daniel678]

I believe that Flowing Time/Timeless Genesis was banned by gentleman's agreement like time travel shenanigans and some other things that I can't remember off the top of my head. There are a few ways like Innate Spell to get Genesis at will. I'm not sure if there is an at will way to get it without the exp cost though.

[Mixster]

What's protecting him from being found with CoP or an epic version of it?

[Daniel678]

The fluff of contact other plane. It's not a spell where you just ask and get an answer. Other greater deities or creatures with such valuable knowledge would not give it to you just because you bug them with a spell. Not to mention that even if they have the knowledge they don't want to get on Dispater's bad side.

Also, "On rare occasions, this divination may be blocked by an act of certain deities or forces."

[Mixster]

Ok so a Shadowcraft Mage Mimicking it through a Shadow Miracle would do perfectly well?

[Daniel678]

As long as you don't mind getting shadow knowledge of his position instead of real knowledge then it probably would  

Seriously though here's a quote from Tshern "Contact other plane can be used to ask questions from other beings, which means your point is moot. The only person in addition to Dispater that has a chance of knowing what he is doing, where he is or what is having for dinner is Asmodeus and I do not find it feasible that he will tell it to you too easily. The deities in question simply might not have the answers, just like you might not have the answer."

A lot of the time you can find answers to your questions here http://community.wizards.com/go/thread/view/75882/19872858/The_Iron_Siege. That quote was the first thing by Tshern when I searched the thread for Contact other Plane.

One tactic which I'm going to try is to summon him and then cause some damage to him. Afterward I should be able to follow him across planes with the Consecrated Harrier searching ability. It doesn't provide the distance to him but once I'm on the same plane I should be able to find his location by triangulating it.

[Tshern]

Genesis is a toold that I have frowned upon. Mostly because I can duplicate that at will, for scroll are cheap. Moreover, the size of the demiplane is hardly an issue.

[Amadi]

Are infinite things banned? If so, just disregard all that will follow..

----------

Wish Economy, or any other means of infinite gold, combined with thought-bottling forever, and we can have access to pretty much every item allowed. If artificer is allowed, infinite gold and infinite craft XP from infinite gold makes it everything ever, and every stat item bumbed to infinite stats. We can also spellward to become immune to every spell, this way. Some items can be made slotless, and then used through demilich-stuff stored in a private plane somewhere. Enough slotless belts of battle and we can act forever.

It still doesn't solve the thing, though, but it should solve some of the problems. Even though we can run around in dis infinitely, we do not have access to every location there.

Or what about being an artificer and hear me out, crafting something stupid enough. Then crafting an infinite amount of these. We can have infinite minions, too, with infinite everything.

All we have to figure is how to actually get to use our infinities.

[Daniel678]

Infinite things are banned. You cannot get infinite gold and magical items have some caps listed in the FAQ. Belt of Battle is a swift action to activate so you cannot gain infinite actions from it. You can spam innate quickened time stop, celerity, or other spells of that nature. It has been tried unsuccessfully. You can look through the previous attempts to see how that went if you want.

Below is my updated section on strategy for fighting Dispater.
Dispater
[spoiler]Negated Abilities: [spoiler]Aura of Hell, Hell's Fire, Perseverance Glance, Acedia's Influence,  The Might of Hell[/spoiler]
Relevant Abilities
[spoiler]Ferric Affinity: Don't carry iron and if you are hidden the don't interact with iron. With Ironward you can avoid doing this by accident.
Interestingly, Dispater can animate slightly less than 8 square feet of Iron (or a greater amount of lighter iron alloys) at a time. This ability is a free action and therefore  Dispater is limited by the movement speed of the iron itself. Animate objects without legs or wheels have a maximum movement speed of 40' per round. As there is time for 2 move actions per turn Dispater can therefore move 38,400 pounds of iron 80' per round He could move less iron a proportionally further distance since he is limited only by quantity and not by actions.
By far the most dangerous part of this ability is that by using a move action he can gain LoS and LoE from any iron within the radius. He can use this ability to steal your time stops and cast his own without them being stolen. To to counter this move so that he need to constantly re-use this ability. Basically, this allows him to constantly attack you without any chance of reprisal. The only way to win this game is not to play.
One method that could be used to reach him could be to wish to be transported to the opposite side of the Ferric Affinity effect.

Iron Curtain: This ability has a long duration so expect it to be constantly active. Since Dispater can negate any attack with a very easy fortitude save there is no way attack him directly while this effect is active. Since it is a supernatural ability it cannot be dispelled and since Dispater is a Cosmic Entity it is unaffected by an anit-magic field. Since saves scale much faster than attributes there is no point in trying to punch through the Iron Curtain. One possible solution would be to remove all of Dispater's spells and magical items. After this has been done his saves should be low enough that the Iron Curtain can be bypassed. The damage negation ability of the Iron Curtain is of no relevance if the character is powerful enough to bypass the first part of the Iron Curtain. This is one problem that I have not fully worked out.

Spellcasting/Psionics: As per page 56 of the XPH the all of the psionic disciplines with the exception of Psychoportation are equivalent to a school of magic for the purpose of psionics-magic transparency. Since the Iron Siege uses psionics-magic transparency I can use Otiluke's Suppressing Field to negate all spells, powers, and items duplicating them which have a CL or ML less than mine. Unless Dispater has some CL increasing trickery he cannot affect me with magic. Also of note is that any spell targeting me has it's caster level reduced by 23. An exception is the discipline of  Psychoportation which functions normally.

Call Devils: It is within Dispater's capabilities to summon 9 Dukes of Hell to come to his aid.  None of the Dukes of Hell are strong enough to challenge me in a straight up fight although the possibility of distraction renders this ability a threat.[/spoiler][/spoiler]
The Iron Tower
[spoiler]Spell Resistance negates the Dimensional Anchor effect.
Immunity to force effects negates the telekenisis.
High reflex saves and evasion negates the lightning bolts.
Immunity to mind effecting effects negates hold monster.
Esoteric Aegis negates the disjunction. [/spoiler]

[Mixster]

Would a DR 16 deity of Devils be able to sense where Dispater is now, and 16 weeks into the future, since he can greater planeshift as well, can't he just turn up exactly where dispater is and blast him?

[Daniel678]

Cosmic entities (TGoH 4) have Spurn the Divine which makes them resistant to deities and devils. Aside from that, Dispater never leaves his tower which is protected from most forms of entry. A wish spell used from the edge of the tower is the only thing which appears to have allowed a challenger entry.

[Tshern]

Infinities are banned mostly, because Dispater has easy access to them as well and I see no point in running a challenge like that. Simply put, infinity versus infinity sounds astonishingly dull.

A small nitpick about the deity of Devils thing: Dispater is not technically a devil, but a malefircarim. I would personally rule that malefircareim fall under the deity's portfolio sense though. Daniel678 got it right with the Spurn the Divine description.

[Daniel678]

I just finished the psionics part of my character. I think that with this he is more or less complete. I only have my fluff and strategy sections to finish up. Although if Complete Psionics is allowed then I still need to work through that.

With that said, I have not done that much with psionics so I would not be surprised if I've either made some mistakes or overlooked some stuff.

If anyone wants to give input the character is in 2 spoiler blocks on page 4. Any help is appreciated since it's sitting at 8000 words.

@Tshern, One question about Ferric Affinity, Dispater can only have 1 extra LoS/LoE from it at one time, correct?

Manifesting[spoiler]Discipline: Telepathy
Power Points: 1743 = 343 Base + 1400 Bonus (70 CL * 40 Int / 2)
PP Limit: 19
Powers Known: 75/86
DC: 50 + Power Level

All powers are Persisted and Repeated for free.

1: Control Light, Know Direction and Location, Missive, Sense Link, Skate, Synesthete
2: Control Sounds, Feat Leech, Identify, Knock, Mass Missive, Lock, Forced Sense Link
3: Time Hop, Touchsight, Ubiquitous Vision
4: Aura Sight, Correspond, Death Urge, Detect Remote Viewing, Dimension Door, Divination, Intellect Fortress, Mindwipe, Psychic Reformation, Trace Teleport, Wall of Ectoplasm
5: Catapsi, Incarnate, Leech Field, Major Creation, Plane Shift,
6: Contingency, Co-opt Concentration, Disintegrate, Retrieve, Temporal Acceleration
7: Divert Teleport, Insanity, Phase Door, Sequester
8: Bend Reality, Matter Manipulation, Recall Death, Shadow Body, Greater Teleport
9: Apopsi, Assimilate, Microcosm, Reality Revision, Timeless Body

Telepathy Powers: Charm, Mindlink, Adversion, Brain Lock, Read Thoughts, Suggestion, Crisis of Breath, Hostile Empathetic Transfer, False Sensory Input, Dominate, Thieving Mindlink, Modify Memory, Schism, Metaconcert, Mind Probe, Mind Switch, Crisis of Life, Mind Seed, True Mind Switch, Psychic Chirurgery

Expanded Knowledge Powers: Hustle, Hypercognition
[/spoiler]

[Tshern]

Why bother with Plane shift? You do have it from your deific powers.

Could you explain what you mean by 'one extra LoS/LoE'?

[Daniel678]

I was just grabbing any power that looked interesting. It did not look like there would be many relevant powers. I still have 11 powers to choose too.

What I mean is that Dispater knows where all iron is in a 15/18 mile radius and as a move action can use a piece of iron in this area as a source of line of sight and line of effect. There could be several different interpretations of this power. One of which is that every time Dispater uses this ability he gains line of sight and effect but does not retain LoS/LoE from previous uses. In my opinion this is the most reasonable and interpretation but you could have interpreted it differently and I need to be sure.

Also, would it be possible for you to clarify what Iron Curtain protects Dispater from? "This power protects Dispater from all forms of attack" is very open ended? Would it protect his protective spells from being dispelled? Would it block any summoning attempt? Would I know what it protects him from?

Speaking of Iron Curtain, does anyone know of a way to negate a Supernatural Ability for a time? The only thing that I have found is 3.0 Spell Immunity but I'm pretty sure that that was banned due to errata. Hellbreaker is useless for this since Iron Curtain will negate the attack.

[Suzerain]

Speaking of Iron Curtain, does anyone know of a way to negate a Supernatural Ability for a time? The only thing that I have found is 3.0 Spell Immunity but I'm pretty sure that that was banned due to errata. Hellbreaker is useless for this since Iron Curtain will negate the attack.

Knowledge affiliation might be able to do it. Unless it also counts as "an attack". Then again, do it 8 or so times and he's out of iron curtains. People on the challenger threads generally agreed that killing Dispater once you have him trapped somewhere with you would be the easiest part (though they might be wrong still).


Previous challengers had luck with Planar Bubble and a subjective gravity plane as your home plane (as a way to "fly" by simply walking). Ways around magical detection are crucial, of course (one of Witch's challengers was defeated by touchsight iirc, so being incoporeal might come in handy). A high hide skill mod and darkstalker are probably a must, unconditional hide in plain sight probably is also. A miracle will get you into the tower. From there on, you're probably dead meat, though.

Once you're in the tower, you'll probably need to have a very, very good divination spell up to dodge his traps and find him. An all-seeing sense stretched out to 1 mile/DvR might do. Otherwise, a spell that basically tells you everything you need to know about the plane you are currently on, constantly (we were given to understand that the tower is a seperate plane of sorts; it has also been called a 'nexus'). Alter Reality/Miracle/Wish will probably get you out of trouble if you're once again trapped (assuming your divination spell shows you a safe place to teleport to). I don't remember whether AR is allowed though. DvR checks apply to everything directly opposing Dispater's power though, most likely, so some of the things might not be as easy. Since I never figured out what exactly needs rank checks and what doesn't, my advice might be of limited help.

[Daniel678]

People on the challenger threads generally agreed that killing Dispater once you have him trapped somewhere with you would be the easiest part (though they might be wrong still).

I know what people say, the fact remains that I have not heard anyone provide a solution to this problem. If it is as easy (relatively speaking) as everyone says it is then there should be plenty of ways to kill Dispater.

I think that I will just make a custom epic Dispel which can remove persistent supernatural effects.

@Tshern, if you can provide a time I will provide a challenger.

[Tshern]

I will be out of the country for pretty much all of the August and during that time my online time will be limited, but not altogether absent. Anyway, please link me to the character and I try to give it a read over the weekend.

[Daniel678]

The most recent version of my character is here.

One thing that I do know is wrong is the spells/day. I changed around my Innate Spell feats a few times without updating them so they should be slightly off.

Also, one trick that I am using which is implied in my tactics section but not specifically stated is that I cast Superior Invisibility with the  Invisible Spell metamagic feat. This removes the visual component so that it cannot be defeated by a spot check. Therefore it just grants protection from blindsight, scent, blindsense, and tremorsense.

Once you're in the tower, you'll probably need to have a very, very good divination spell up to dodge his traps and find him. An all-seeing sense stretched out to 1 mile/DvR might do.

I plan on triangulating his location since that method will work no matter the distance between us.

DvR checks apply to everything directly opposing Dispater's power though, most likely, so some of the things might not be as easy. Since I never figured out what exactly needs rank checks and what doesn't, my advice might be of limited help.

Divine ranks apply when a deity tried to affect a cosmic entity with a divine power or most salient divine abilities or when a cosmic entity tries to affect a deity with one of it's unique powers (from the cosmic entity template). Lords of the Nine need to succeed on a rank check to enter a hallowed ground. A deity who uses alter reality must make a rank check if they try to change an ongoing cosmic effect or oppose another deities alter reality ability. A deity is only killed if they die on their home plane and their killer succeeds on a rank check. Deity immunities are ignored on a rank check. Deities who attempt to change the conditions of another deities cosmic realm make a rank check at a -8 penalty.

My character relies on his deific abilities and immunities as little as possible. I still rely on being a deity to gain immunity to imprisonment and banishment. Although I am unaffected by most of those abilities since I have high saves and SR. I can use the hallow spell offensively to restrict the movement of Dispater. Alter Reality simply duplicates wish. When I would come into opposition with a deity or cosmic entity I can simply use wish to get the effect that I want without needing to make a roll.

While reading over that, I just realized that since Alter Reality specifically states that it can be used to change ongoing cosmic effects put into place by cosmic entities I can use either it or wish to strip Dispater of his Iron Curtain. Thanks, getting past that obstacle has been something that's been a problem for a while.

@Tshern Here are 2 epic spells I made. Both are modification of existing epic spells. The first is based off of the Circle of Locking the Nine Gates. I removed a lot of the fluff, changed it so that it doesn't banish whatever it summons, and removed the ritual component. I also added in non-epic defensive spell penetration and contingency suppression to the spell.

The Circle Calling a Lord of Hell [spoiler]
Conjuration (Summoning)
Spellcraft DC: 178
Components: V, S, XP
Casting Time: Standard action
Range: 75 feet
Effect: One summoned Lord of the Nine
Duration: 27
Saving Throw: No
Spell Resistance: Yes (see text)
To Develop[spoiler] 1,602000 gp, 64,080 xp, 33 days. Seed:destroy (DC 29), Seed:summon (DC 14) Seed:ward (DC 14). Factors: summon a unique creature (DC
+60), summon a CR 66 creature (+122 DC), one magic circle against evil (ad hoc +10 DC), maximized damage for destroy seed(ad hoc +10 DC), prevent regeneration from divine damage (ad hoc +10), allow no save against damage
from the destroy seed (ad hoc +10), Ignore all non-epic protective spells or powers (ad hoc +50 DC), Suppresses contingent spells +36(ad hoc), 1-action casting time Mitigating factors: burn 9,90 XP (-99 DC), 99d6 backlash damage (-99 DC) [/spoiler]

In locking the Nine Gates, casters may temporarily destroy a Lord of the Nine.

A portion of hell surrounding the Lord of the Nine is suddenly dragged from Hell and forced into the center of the magic circle against evil. The Lord finds that it cannot return to the Pit and that it cannot summon or call allies for the duration of the spell.

The Lord of the Nine's entry into to the mortal coil is a painful one as not only is the Duke forced to the Prime, but so too is a portion of Hell. The simultaneous placement of these two realities causes grave damage to the Lord; the Lord immediately suffers 120 points of divine damage, with no saving throw. The Lord does not regenerate this damage during the duration of the spell (although he may use other means to heal). At this point, the caster(s) must enter the magic circle against evil in order to battle with the Duke.

The Lord of the Nine may make a caster level check to determine whether he can ignore the wards by means of spell resistance.Should the Lord attempt to breach the surrounding wards he automatically suffers 120 points of damage per attempt.

The duration of the spell is always 27 rounds. If after that time has elapsed the Lord is not destroyed, the spell ceases to function and the Lord is free. It may summon or call reinforcements, may return to Hell, or may wander the mortal coil for up to nine days. Most Lords, unless gravely wounded, are guaranteed to exact immediate revenge against at least one of its tormentors before retreating to slowly ruin the lives of other living adversaries.

This spell ignores any non-epic protective spells, spell-like abilities, powers,  or psi-like abilities in place upon either the Lord or the surrounding portion of Hell. The caster of any opposing protective epic spell must make succeed on an opposed caster level  in order for this spell to be prevented. Additionally no contingent spells are triggered by any effect of this spell.

Backlash Cost: 99d6
XP Cost: 9,900 XP.

[zook1shoe]

Is there a list of all the previously approved sources?

[Tshern]

I am sorry this slipped, I have been really busy with some family issues and matters concerning my work. I'll try to get back to reading the character of Daniel678's either tonight or tomorrow.

zook1shoe: No.

Daniel678: No, the Wish thing is not allowed. Wow, I never stop wondering how stupid Savage Species can get.