Grappling question

[Prime32]

Repost from the Simple question/simple answer thread

Q53: The rules on grappling let you use a grappled opponent's weapon to attack him without it leaving his hand. Can you attack a creature with one of its own natural weapons in this manner?

EDIT:
[spoiler=The conversation]

On the next turn can I grab this thing's arm and attack it with its own claw? (use opponent's weapon option)

Prime, you are so lucky I keep rolling 6s for his AoO against your grapple attempt.

But no, since he's not holding a weapon, you can't beat him with his own claw. If you pin him and cut off his hand, then yes, you can stab him with it.

Natural weapons are light weapons, right? Your opponent never "leaves go" of his weapon when you take that action, so it doesn't have to be something that can be disarmed...

Yeah, I'll accept if you say no, I just won't be happy about it.

Decided it be best to continue the discussion here.  I'm not sold either way, but it's the wording of "holding" the weapon that inclines me slightly more towards no, since I can punch you with my fist (a natural weapon) but I'm not actually "holding" my fist... I'm open to thoughts and discussion, though.

The rules seem rather ambiguous, but I have no problem visualising it.

It just looks like an awkward wording to me. Want to start a thread in the Min/Max boards for some more opinions?

That might not be a bad idea, although it might be something simple we're missing. Probably best to try the simple question thread first

[/spoiler]

[pfooti]

From the rules:

"If your opponent is holding a light weapon"

Natural weapons are considered light for the purpose of Weapon Finesse (feat text), as well as by the text in Power Attack (where they're specifically excluded from the no-light-weapons clause). However, you aren't considered to be holding a natural weapon. It's likely a gray area, I could see reasons to go either way, but I don't think there's a clear reason to say that you could do that.

[jameswilliamogle]

Since an unarmed strike is any part of the body, you could grapple people and beat them to death with their own wangs...

I could see it being OK in most situations.  Grappling a monster, forcing them to chomp or claw their own body parts (like arms).  Do you get their Str mod on damage ?

[Prime32]

Do you get their Str mod on damage ?

Not by the rules, no.

[archangel.arcanis]

just look at the real life example for it: "stop hitting your self. stop hitt........"

i would say making them hit themselves with their own claw/tail would be fine but not bite attacks, since you can't manipulate the jaw muscles as easily.

[woodenbandman]

^Damn you jokestealer!