Rebalanced Barbarian: Can an old dog learn new tricks?

[VennDygrem]

Ok, so as the title suggests, I'm currently trying to build a Barbarian, a shifter at that, for a Play-by-Post game run by Sinfire Titan. Several houserules, including:

    * Starting level of ECL 3
    * Point-buy stat generation
    * Most races have no ability penalties
    * Flaws are allowed, but no traits
    * Feats/PrC's/Variants that are region/CS specific need to be approved by the DM
    * Moderate optimization- Not too high, not too low
    * No cheesiness like Changeling Warshaper (or shifter, in this case), or Dragonwrought Kobold qualifying early for epic feats, etc.

and a few more less character-creation-related rules.

So basically, I came across RobbyPants' rebalance of the Barbarian which I wanted to try out in this PbP game on another forum. I decided to go with Shifter to enhance raging and such, and because I haven't played one yet.

The problem is that I don't want to just be a one-trick pony.
Sure I can go with the standard charger-build, get Leap Attack, Shock Trooper, Combat Brute, etc, but then that's all I am. Admittedly, I could be damn good at it, but in the end I'm relying on the ability to charge. What happens if I can't? If the quarters are cramped, or something else prevents such tactics? Plus, it uses up valuable feat slots for feats I won't be using much (Imp. Bullrush and Sunder).

Some things of note are that the Barbarian rewrite includes a different version of Rage (+4 str, +2 will, +2 fort, no con bonus but lasts 5 + con mod rounds instead of 3, and is usable 1/encounter), and at level 6 it gets pounce, so there's no need to go with the Lion Totem ACF.

Now, since the class already gets pounce, I'd think my priority would be adding to the number of attacks I can make in a round. Being a shifter (surprising that there were never Shifter Barbarian racial sub levels), it's not too hard to get one or two natural attacks, though the damage output is much lower than going with a two-handed weapon with Power Attack, and focusing on natural weapons tends to fall behind in damage potential pretty quickly, especially with a full-BAB class. The class also gets several nicer abilities later on in levels, which makes it appealing to stay with it all the way through. However, with the right alternative, it could be worth it to take a PrC or something to boost my versatility.

Currently, with 32 PB and no stat penalties, the Shifter's stats look like this:
Str 18
Dex 14
Con 16
Int 8
Wis 10
Cha 8

Initially, my feats for first level were Power Attack and two shifter feats so that my Shifting lasts as long as my Rage and can be used twice a day. I'm open to changing this if need-be.

There will only be three people in the party total, including me, and most people contributing seemed to want to make ranged or casting based characters.

What can I do to stand out, and to hold up in the party?

[VennDygrem]

So, I'm wondering, with the class abilities the way they are, is it worth dipping classes and/or taking prestige classes (such as Bear Warrior)? That might help guide me as to what feats I ought to take to support the build.

Anything that can add to a Barbarian's versatility would help. I suppose I could go Totem Rager or something, mix in levels of Totemist or something, though it seems like the more pure the build the better. Not sure, though.

[VennDygrem]

So I attempted making a base class to get some of the things I like from the Barbarian Rewrite, while also getting a good amount of meldshaping. Balancing this beast is not easy, so I'm pretty much back to deciding between Barbarian or Totemist.

This version of the Barbarian is really interesting, though, especially with the way I'm flavoring the class for the game. The problem remains though, of versatility.

Are Barbarians really only good for charging? I really don't like the idea of devoting all my feats just toward that mechanic, even if it is a proven method for 'doling out the harshness', as they say.

Any ideas would be greatly appreciated. 

[pfooti]

It really depends on what you mean by "really only good", and "moderate optimization". For example, even without charging (and the requisite pounce stuff), you can do lots of damage as a barbarian. RobbyPants's barbarian is better, flat out, at dishing damage, than a PHB barbarian. Being able to rage every encounter at first level is HUGE, trust me. Most barbarians have to take Extra Rage for that reason.

Now, a charge, leap attack, whirling frenzy, pounce, shocktrooper barbarian does a retarded amount of damage per round (even more if you maybe dip 5 levels of scout and pick up improved skirmish for an extra 4d6 damage per attack, or do any number of other tricks to trick out your charge damage).

The thing is, I find that being devoted to the charge in a game with a somewhat-intelligent DM isn't a good move. You'll soon find that after you vaporize the first monster in the group, the second and third (and so on) all make sure to position themselves to keep you from charging. Just using stuff like caltrops is enough, really. And trust me, they'll do it once they figure it out. If you've got a cheating DM, even the first monster in each encounter will do that, since he'll somehow "know". But I digress.

Anyway, I've played a number of straight-melee types, and they can do a lot. Just because you're killer in combat doesn't mean you can't have a lot of fun with the RP. Barbarians also have a pretty interesting and variable skill list - things like intimidate, listen, and survival are pretty useful, and having 4 skills per level means you can afford to cross class some stuff from time to time as well.

Personally, my favorite barbarian type is NOT the charger, but rather the guy who either enlarges on his own, or is a Goliath with the sublevel (become Large when raging), who goes for Knockback and Dungeoncrasher. If you want, you can do a very respectable amount of damage, but you do it in a way that ALSO shapes the tactical situation with your fun uses of the other elements to Shocktrooper when you're not charging. Instead of doing crazy damage and having a 4 AC, you can do somewhat less damage, and knock your foes flying, prone, and subject to a fair amount of damage when they get tossed into walls. It's really, really satisfying.

[Operation Shoestring]

Personally, my favorite barbarian type is NOT the charger, but rather the guy who either enlarges on his own, or is a Goliath with the sublevel (become Large when raging), who goes for Knockback and Dungeoncrasher. If you want, you can do a very respectable amount of damage, but you do it in a way that ALSO shapes the tactical situation with your fun uses of the other elements to Shocktrooper when you're not charging. Instead of doing crazy damage and having a 4 AC, you can do somewhat less damage, and knock your foes flying, prone, and subject to a fair amount of damage when they get tossed into walls. It's really, really satisfying.

I agree with this.  My bear warrior build (Mod alone knows if i'll ever play it) took shock trooper for the ability to scatter enemies (because c'mon that's what a massive bear does in battle), and not for the -AC on power attack gig, which I always called the "kamikaze option".

[VennDygrem]

Thanks for replying. As I said, I was hoping that there were options for the Barbarian other than charging, because as pfooti pointed out, a smart DM will pull the rug out on that not long after combat starts (or prevent it through clever use of terrain, etc.).

As a Shifter, I can try to make sure I get as many Shifter braids as possible later on, but I can't necessarily rely on steady access to them. I can still see if I can take something like Knockback, usable only when I use the shifter braids. Since there's no LA-buyoff, I'm hesitant to go with any races with LA because of obvious reasons. However, some races have no LA anymore, though there's no complete list of which ones these are. I've been told that the DM would prefer I not use Goliath, but that Half-Giant is allowed (no word on if it still has the LA). That still doesn't get me large size, though it gets me large-size-or-powerful-build feats. If I went with Half-Giant, would it be viable to dip into levels of Psychic Warrior or something (DM has house-ruled Half-Giants to have PP == 1/character-level, wouldn't want it to go to waste)

[pfooti]

Well, if your DM prefers you don't take Goliath, that's for a REALLY good reason. For a melee-oriented build, they're totally worth the +1 LA. It's not like you're a caster: melee PCs perform based primarily on their combat skills, and for a +1 LA, you get +4 str, which provides a +1 att/dam over and above non-LA races, use larger weapons (usually another 3.5 damage per hit), and qualify for a crapton of awesome feats. Goliath is really the One True Barbarian Race, in my opinion. There's other interesting stuff out there, but usually the solid numbers behind ol' big-and-rocky is hard to beat. Plus, goliaths are Monstrous Humanoids, so: Darkvision, immunity to Charm Person (and, sadly, Enlarge Person), and other neat stuff. Really a spectacular race. If your DM allows it, take it - it's much better than shifter (although shifter is good too).

Honestly, there's two ways to stripe the barbarian. You can either go in for the full ride, or you can Dip. I actually prefer the Dip. Barbarian-1 gets you rage and some other stuff (fast movement, etc). If you want to go beyond Barbarian-1, you're doing it for a VERY specific reason. For example, in a 5th-level build, would you rather have Barbarian-5, or Barbarian-1/Fighter-4? Levels 2-5 in core barbarian net you: +1 rage, improved uncanny dodge and trap sense. All solid, but fighter-4 gets you 3 feats, or a ton of interesting ACFs (the designers love giving fighters good alternate class features. The barbarian, OTOH, suffers from a lack besides the stuff in Unearthed Arcana and Complete Champion). Warblade-4 gives you stances, maneuvers, better skills and even gives uncanny (but not improved uncanny) dodge.

On the other hand, RobbyPants' barbarian gives you some really great options. Rage every encounter, pounce when you need it, free haste, fear immunity, and so on - those are really cool features worth staying single-classed for. If you can find ways to get large (ideally, a custom use-activated magic item that triggers when you rage as a free action), knockback is hugely great. As the Shoestring noted, you can do this also with a Bear Warrior build, since you are automagically large as a bear warrior (at least, when you get to be a large bear). But if you can't be reliably large, you can't go the knockback route.

Psionically, I actually prefer a combination of Barbarian with War Mind myself. You can do it if you're neutral - war mind requires nonchaotic and barbarian requires nonlawful. you cannot manifest a power when you're raging, but you *can* use expansion before you rage and just save all your other powers for out-of combat utility (dimension hop, etc). You can easily meet the entry requirements to War Mind with a single level dip of soulknife. In that case, though, I prefer just going Human for the extra feat (you'll need it) plus the favored class thing. Although if you can swing it, a Goliath War Mind can use expansion to become Large and powerful-build himself to a Huge equivalent (which is better than Mountain Rage), and later become Huge with expansion. Mmm, 6d6 greataxe. That's actually the breakpoint where monkey grip becomes useful. Monkey gripping a greataxe as a high-level one of those characters would leave you as a Huge creature who can wield Colossal weapons - the -2 penalty from MG is worth the +2d6 damage, and then you've got an 8d6 greataxe. Of course, that's somewhere in the vicinity of level 8, so where the wizard is using 8d6 fireballs, you're hitting twice per round with iterative attacks (thrice with haste) for 8d6 per hit. At level 10, those 8d6 greataxe hits hit two adjacent foes, via the sweeping strike class feature. Who needs pounce?

Speaking of, in any of those cases, you do need to worry about favored classes: knockback builds want at least fighter-2 for lesser dungeoncrashing, some go to fighter-8 because greater dungeoncrashing is dead sexy (it's huge damage). Totem Rager builds have unbalanced levels (but do sexily overpowered damage too), and nobody useful favors soulknife. If your DM doesn't do multiclass XP penalties, you're fine, but if he does, watch out. IIRC, shifters favor ranger, don't they? Been ages since I played in ebberon.

Finally, a closing thought. It's important to decide what your Primary Shtick will be. Barbarians make excellent pouncers (esp. totem rager), dungeoncrashers (goliaths and war minds), grapplers (bear warriors) and trippers (wolf totem). Each sort of focus will require you to make PrC and secondary class choices that you should worry about ahead of time. So it's worth deciding what you find most amusing.

[RobbyPants]

I think a tripper could be fun too, and it's not that hard to be a decent charger and a good tripper.  That way, you're not totally hosed if you can't trip your target.

Of course, since I only focused on the core class, I hadn't really put any thought into most of the ACFs for the class.  Some of them will interact rather oddly.  If you're looking for extra attacks, Whirling Frenzy is great, although I never really worked out how it replaces Rage.  That's something you'll have to ask your DM about.  Normally, WF doesn't grant the +4 Con boost of Rage.  In my version, I got rid of the Con boost because I didn't like the nature of the HP you gain (more importantly, how you lose them when you stop raging).  So, I rolled in the +2 Fort save bonus and the Temp HP in its place.  To make the Temp HP more useful, they are replenished every round.  Losing both of those features seems like a pretty hefty price to pay.  I think I might bring this up in my thread to see what people think.

As for other ACFs, I think they should swap out just fine.  As pfooti suggested, Wolf totem makes for a good tripper.

[Brainpiercing]

Hmm, but why is it then that a Barb must decide which way to go, while a class-mix of Knockbacking Crasher/Initiator/Barb and other stuff (possibly monk variant, psywar, or binder) can potentially do it ALL?

The real problem lies in the fact that often melee PrCs require crappy feats, so I am a big fan of stacking two levels of melee base classes, and possibly advancing only the favoured class.

[VennDygrem]

I don't think the barbarian has to decide on one path (not anymore, thanks to some convincing arguments in these threads).

Also, I know it's been mentioned that a couple levels of dungeon crasher might be good to have, but honestly I'm not sure there'll be enough chances to knock enemies into walls in this game.

I'll reply to your other suggestions in the other thread.

Now that I think about it, replacing a few of those levels of Barbarian with Totemist (maybe dipping into Totem Rager) would make for an awesome Bear Warrior. Rage out into Bear form, attack with girallon's arms and maybe one or two soulmelds for a ranged option here or there, combined with warshaper? Fun times.

More so with Shifter, and the Shifter Savagery feat, and a couple Shifter Braids. Rage into Brown Bear, become Large, Shift simultaneously with Shifter Braid (affixed with wilding clasp if need-be) to gain Huge Size and more powerful natural attacks. All natural attacks as though Colossal size? Even without the Shifter Braid (the mechanics meshing with bear form are a bit specious, and cheesy at best), that's still Gargantuan size damage.
----------------
Actually, who needs Shifter Braids when you've got levels in Warshaper?
"Screw the Rules, I've got Warshaper!"
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Soultouched [Skarn] Shifter Lion-Totem Barbarian 1/Totemist 8/Bear Warrior 1/Warshaper 3/BW +4/Totemist +3

Feats:
1) Soultouched Elite, Healing Factor (flaw), Power Attack (flaw)
3) Multiattack
6) Bonus Essentia
9) Extra Shifter Trait (Soultouched [Azurin])
12) Shifter Savagery
15) Cobalt Rage
18) Improved Multiattack

[Operation Shoestring]

Soultouched [Azurin]

? is this some variant on Azurin, or is thus just fluff?

[VennDygrem]

Sorry, I forgot that I hadn't mentioned that in the OP.

I asked Sinfire if I could make a Shifter trait based on Incarnum, and he liked the idea enough that he went ahead and made one that covered all the incarnum-touched races in MoI, calling it Soultouched. The one trait grants 1 temporary point of Essentia while shifting, and another benefit based on the incarnum race whose ancestry you share (Basically, your incarnum-touched ancestor contracted lycanthropy, or you share both traits in your bloodline. This part's fluff, really.)

I then created an 'elite' feat based on that, like the other shifter traits (ie: Longtooth Elite, Beasthide Elite, etc.) which grants 1 extra temporary essentia while shifting. I considered making it somewhat more powerful, but Essentia is supposed to be sort of hard to come by.

This way, while shifting I'll have two extra essentia to invest in my soulmelds, which should help overcome the loss of Totemist levels, if only a bit and under certain conditions.

I don't want to post all of the stuff without Sinfire's consent, since he wrote it all up.

[VennDygrem]

Hmm, while the extra point of essentia and abilities from Cobalt Rage are nice, would I instead benefit more from being able to Shift an extra time per day?

NM, I actually ought to replace Improved Natural Attack, since it doesn't stack with Shifter Savagery.

Edited previous post with modified feat list. I'm pretty sure this is the build now.