Author Topic: Air Domain Rebuking  (Read 2705 times)

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8w_gremlin

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Air Domain Rebuking
« on: February 15, 2009, 10:27:12 PM »
I'm needing help with a build, and i want to see how effective a part of that build is, namely Rebuking Air type creatures - gained from the Air Domain. So far I've collated a list of Air Creatures, and have the CR of each, now for rebuking you are able to rebuke 1/2 your HD, plus any items that you might have that increases Turn Undead or rebuke undead, such as a phylactery of undead turning (+4)

So can anyone help me find the HD values for the creatures below and then I can then rank them in level.

or if you can see any that I've missed please tell me. (I'll add HD when I get them)

thanks

[spoiler=Large Table of Air Creatures]
NameBookPageTypeCRHD
Abomination,    ChichimecEL160Outsider, Medium (Air, Evil)21 -
Arrowhawk, AdultMM19Outsider, Medium (Air, Extraplanar)5 7
Arrowhawk, ElderMM19Outsider, Large (Air, Extraplanar)8 15
Arrowhawk, JuvenileMM19Outsider, Small (Air, Extraplanar)3 3
BelkerMM27Elemental, Large (Air, Extraplanar)6 -
BreathdrinkerMM239Elemental, Medium (Air)7 8
Cyclonic Ravager (Air Avatar)MM410Elemental, Large (Air, Extraplanar)15 -
DjinniMM114Outsider, Large (Air, Extraplanar)5 7
Djinni, NobleMM114Outsider, Large (Air, Extraplanar)8 10
Dragon, CrystalMM281Dragon (Air)Varies 5+
Dragon, EmeraldMM282Dragon (Air)Varies 6+
Dragon, FangDr159Dragon (Air)Varies 3+
Dragon, GreenMM74Dragon (Air)Varies -
Drake, AirDr152Dragon, Large (Air)6 8
Drake, IceDr154Dragon, Large (Air, Cold, Water)7 8
Drake, SmokeDr157Dragon, Large (Air, Fire)9 12
Drake, StormDr194Dragon, Gargantuan (Air)17 30
Dust TwisterSa162Elemental, Medium (Air, Extraplanar)3 -
Elemental Steward, TempestanCP132Elemental, Small (Air, Extraplanar, Psionic)2 -
Elemental Weird, SnowFr127Elemental, Large (Air, Cold, Extraplanar)15 -
Elemental, AirMM95Elemental, Air (Air, Extraplanar)Varies -
Elemental, Air PrimalEL187Elemental, Colassal (Air)35 -
Elemental, StormMM348Elemental (Air, Extraplanar)Varies -
Genie, DaoMP173Outsider, Large (Air, Evil)7 -
Giant, CloudMM120Giant, Huge (Air)11 -
Giant, FogMon50Giant, Huge (Air)8 -
Ice Paraelemental, ElderMP181Elemental, Huge (Air, Cold)11 -
Ice Paraelemental, GreaterMP181Elemental, Huge (Air, Cold)9 -
Ice Paraelemental, HugeMP181Elemental, Huge (Air, Cold)7 -
Ice Paraelemental, LargeMP181Elemental, Large (Air, Cold)5 -
Ice Paraelemental, MediumMP181Elemental, Medium (Air, Cold)3 -
Ice Paraelemental, SmallMP181Elemental, Small (Air, Cold)1 -
Ice SerpentMon62Elemental, Large (Air, Cold)3 -
Ildriss, Elemental GrueCAr155Elemental, Medium (Air, Evil, Extraplanar)2 -
ImmothMM2127Elemental, Large (Air, Cold, Extraplanar, Water)9 10
Invisible StalkerMM160Elemental, Large (Air, Extraplanar)7 -
Ken-SunMM549Giant, Large (Air)13 -
Living HolocaustFF117Elemental, Small (Air, Fire, Extraplanar)13 -
Mephit, AirMM181Outsider, Small (Air, Extraplanar)3 3
Mephit, DustMM181Outsider, Small (Air, Extraplanar)3 3
Mephit, IceMM182Outsider, Small (Air, Cold, Extraplanar)3 3
Mephit, SulfurSa176Outsider, Small (Air, Earth, Extraplanar)3 -
Monolith, AirCAr156Elemental, Gargantuan (Air, Extraplanar)17 -
OmnimentalMM3118Elemental, Gargantuan (Air, Earth, Extraplanar, Fire, Water)15 -
Ruin ChanterMM5132Fey, Medium (Air, Earth)14 -
Smoke Paraelemental, ElderMP184Elemental, Huge (Air, Fire)11 -
Smoke Paraelemental, GreaterMP184Elemental, Huge (Air, Fire)9 -
Smoke Paraelemental, HugeMP184Elemental, Huge (Air, Fire)7 -
Smoke Paraelemental, LargeMP184Elemental, Large (Air, Fire)5 -
Smoke Paraelemental, MediumMP184Elemental, Medium (Air, Fire)3 -
Smoke Paraelemental, SmallMP184Elemental, Small (Air, Fire)1 -
Spirit of the AirFF160Magical Beast, Large (Air)11 -
Steel DragonDrF140Dragon (Air)Varies -
Swarm, Air ElementitePlH114Elemental, Tiny (Air, Extraplanar, Swarm)4 -
SylphMM2192Outsider, Small (Air, Extraplanar)5 3
T'ien Lung (Celestial Dragon)OA161Dragon (Air, Spirit)Varies -
VoidwraithLM131Undead, Medium (Air, Incorporeal)6 6
Weird, AirMM291Elemental, Large (Air)12 15
[/spoiler]
« Last Edit: February 16, 2009, 06:01:10 AM by 8w_gremlin »

Bozwevial

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Re: Air Domain Rebuking
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2009, 10:35:26 PM »
Djinni--7HD
Noble djinni--10HD
Juvenile arrowhawk--3HD
Adult arrowhawk--7HD
Elder arrowhawk--15 HD

And doesn't the rebuke ability function exactly like the turn ability, in that your turning check affects the highest HD you can turn/rebuke, and then you roll turning/rebuking damage for the exact Hit Dice?

8w_gremlin

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Re: Air Domain Rebuking
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2009, 10:48:51 PM »
Rebuking basically only relies on your total turn undead level, so read below and remember to replace undead with Air Creature!


Bozwevial

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Re: Air Domain Rebuking
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2009, 10:56:06 PM »
Given that

a) You need twice as many levels as the controlled creature has Hit Dice(not levels in rebuking, levels as in character level), and

b) You need to issue commands as a standard action

It's probably a lot easier just to summon things instead.

8w_gremlin

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Re: Air Domain Rebuking
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2009, 11:09:02 PM »
True Summoning is more immediate, but with rebuking once you have them, you have them until you get bored or they die!

Imagine a level 6 character with 4 Small Air Elementals around 24 hours a day 7 days a week (or 10 on some planes)

Total number of HD controlled = 2 X HD
Maximum HD able to be controlled = your HD/2

So i wonder if any spells would help, such as desecrate?

Bozwevial

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Re: Air Domain Rebuking
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2009, 11:10:39 PM »
The problem with that is that you can only get them to act by taking a standard action, which eats into your own effectiveness. Compare that to the reserve feat that lets you summon elementals.

8w_gremlin

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Re: Air Domain Rebuking
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2009, 11:21:04 PM »
True the standard action to issue commands is a problem, but its Core!
How do people controlling undead get around it, they have the same limitation?

Anklebite

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Re: Air Domain Rebuking
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2009, 11:26:31 PM »
standard action: "kill anything I raise my middle finger at"

who says the standard action had to be in combat?  :P
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skydragonknight

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Re: Air Domain Rebuking
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2009, 11:38:20 PM »
 :bigeye...I need to try a fire-based version of this and start rebuking Efreeti for Wishes.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Bozwevial

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Re: Air Domain Rebuking
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2009, 11:42:46 PM »
True the standard action to issue commands is a problem, but its Core!
How do people controlling undead get around it, they have the same limitation?

The reason controlling undead is a better prospect is as follows:

How do you get undead? Answer: By animating corpses (or by rebuking, but that's negligible for this argument.)

How do you get corpses? By killing things.

Given that combat encounters occur fairly more frequently than encounters with air creatures (or fire creatures, water creatures, etc), you're almost guaranteed a steady supply of corpses to convert into undead--and your undead are helpful at creating corpses, too--it's a never ending cycle!

:bigeye...I need to try a fire-based version of this and start rebuking Efreeti for Wishes.

You'd be level 20 by the time you could do that...Well within the range of normal Wish loop shenanigans anyway. :P

jameswilliamogle

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Re: Air Domain Rebuking
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2009, 11:52:33 PM »
Its true that you generally get really weak creatures by rebuking them when going this route.  Add to that the fact that items that boost turning specify undead only, and it becomes pretty hard to optimize for controlling.

Still...  just turning/rebuking every [air], [undead], and [earth] you encounter is pretty darn good!  Add to that the Fire domain and you get to turn a sizable portion of the SRD monsters.

Remember, use Planar Ally to customize your controlled lists.

Bozwevial

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Re: Air Domain Rebuking
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2009, 11:53:23 PM »
Oh, I'm not saying it isn't good. I'm just saying there are probably easier and somewhat more efficient methods.

8w_gremlin

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Re: Air Domain Rebuking
« Reply #12 on: February 16, 2009, 12:07:45 AM »
Agreed this might not be the most optimal of character creations, but if you have to use the domain you might as well try and optimise what you have.

The power states
Turn or destroy earth creatures as a good cleric turns undead. Rebuke, command, or bolster air creatures as an evil cleric rebukes undead. Use these abilities a total number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier. This granted power is a supernatural ability.
So what actual adds to this, does a phylactery of undead turning work?

skydragonknight

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Re: Air Domain Rebuking
« Reply #13 on: February 16, 2009, 12:28:12 AM »
Agreed this might not be the most optimal of character creations, but if you have to use the domain you might as well try and optimise what you have.

The power states
Turn or destroy earth creatures as a good cleric turns undead. Rebuke, command, or bolster air creatures as an evil cleric rebukes undead. Use these abilities a total number of times per day equal to 3 + your Charisma modifier. This granted power is a supernatural ability.
So what actual adds to this, does a phylactery of undead turning work?

Not as written, no. Therefore on the theoretical level this build will be weaker than one that rebukes undead. On the practical level, if you invest in the craft wondrous item feat it should be relatively simple to convince a DM to let you craft elemental turning/rebuking items with the same price and stats as their undead turning counterparts. Something that is both fair and even slightly underpowered, considering there's less variety of elemental creatures than undead.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Air Domain Rebuking
« Reply #14 on: February 16, 2009, 12:31:10 AM »
Air Genasi. 'Nuff said.


[spoiler][/spoiler]

Bozwevial

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Re: Air Domain Rebuking
« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2009, 12:33:15 AM »
Air Genasi. 'Nuff said.

Wouldn't that be treated as though you had a sufficient result to command an intelligent undead, thus charming them?

8w_gremlin

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Re: Air Domain Rebuking
« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2009, 04:21:11 AM »
On a side note, Dragon magic pg 14 allows clerics and paladins to give up turn or rebuke undead and instead gain Rebuke Dragon.

Rebuke dragon works just the same, although dragons shaing the same alignment gain + 2 turn resistance to you for each alignment that matches yours.

So not great but here's the intesting part - its all dragons - including kobolds! young proto pun puns beware!

Edit:Just read this
Slyph: MM2 pg 192  air outsider 3HD
  • Casts spells as a sorcerer level HD+4 (7th level)
  • Has empowered spell as a feat
  • Has SR 14
  • Improved Invisibility (self) @ will
  • Summon Elemental, 1/day cast summon monster VI (caster level 12), to summon a large elemental (air, earth, fire or water)

So who doesn't want level 6 spells 1/day at level 6 when you get this! in fact you could conceivably control 4 of them!
« Last Edit: February 16, 2009, 04:50:10 AM by 8w_gremlin »

jameswilliamogle

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Re: Air Domain Rebuking
« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2009, 10:07:42 AM »
Edit:Just read this
Slyph: MM2 pg 192  air outsider 3HD
    [/sblock]Yes, exactly what I was talking about! 

    Anyways, normal True Dragons all have an elemental subtype, so the proposed Earth/Fire cleric could turn them already.  Turning Kobolds et al isn't really that good, imo, though they do have less than one HD, normally, right?  So you could get some at L1, I guess...

    The Improved Turning feat is the only thing that I know will improved all turning types.  There's some feats specifically for the Turn Element domains in Complete Divine, though.  Also, there may be some church affiliations in complete champion that could help your score (I'm not sure, though).

ronyon

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Re: Air Domain Rebuking
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2009, 04:01:50 AM »
If you have a god who grants multiple elemental domains, try the Substitute Domain spell ftw. Maybe use Heretic of the Faith for the Rune domain(Lesser Planar Binding?).
I had a 3.0 character with Animal and Plant domains, true neutral, channeling negative energy, and we started out in a store bought adventure that had twigblights(how often do you see those) dire rats , and skeletons.
Much fun was had by me! I swear I didnt peek at the encounters...

Optimator

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Re: Air Domain Rebuking
« Reply #19 on: February 18, 2009, 08:36:16 PM »
Damn yes to rebuking a Noble djinni!