Author Topic: Anti-caster build ideas? (Read 29632 times)

mans0011 · « **Reply #140 on:** March 01, 2009, 04:53:29 AM »

A tower shield with shrink item cast on it is good for getting around AMFs. As soon as the shield is hit by an AMF it becomes life-sized again and blocks the AMF from touching the wizard. That's what my level 20, paranoid wizard carries around. Because, honestly, it's not that difficult to carry around a permanent shrink item tower shield. It could very well save your life. You could also word a contingency or crafted contingent spell as such: "If I am to ever be subject to an anti-magic field, dimension door me 800 feet straight into the air." Then the wizard can just fly away. Or have enough time to cast a teleportartion spell or something. 800 feet is a long time to fall.

BowenSilverclaw · « **Reply #141 on:** March 01, 2009, 06:47:30 AM »

Dude, you do realize shrunk adamantine dome hats are the latest fashion, right?

Anklebite · « **Reply #142 on:** March 01, 2009, 07:23:31 AM »

well, if we are gonna use AMF with spellcasting..... instead, cast shrink item on as large a volume of water as you can. tie this to the arrow. imbue the arrow with AMF, but in conjunction with the delay spell metamagic feat, delayed to one round.... arrow sticks in wizard, and one round later the AMF goes off, trapping the wizard inside his dome hat along with enough water to drown him.

use the hat against him

ErhnamDJ · « **Reply #143 on:** March 01, 2009, 07:48:14 AM »

I don't know about you guys, but when this dire tortiose sees an arrow zipping his way, he high tails it outta there.

Anklebite · « **Reply #144 on:** March 01, 2009, 08:56:44 AM »

Quote from: ErhnamDJ on March 01, 2009, 07:48:14 AM

I don't know about you guys, but when this dire tortiose sees an arrow zipping his way, he high tails it outta there.

the trick is hitting him with the water/AMF arrow. if that lands, doesn't matter if he teleports. he will still have problems, unless he has invoke magic.... but if that has a verbal component, he is still screwed.

jameswilliamogle · « **Reply #145 on:** March 01, 2009, 10:33:25 AM »

Quote from: The_Mad_Linguist on March 01, 2009, 12:48:31 AM

He *did* specify a min/maxed caster.

It isn't so much that he has all the tricks prepared at once (although he well might), it's just that Contact Other Plane ensures that he has the *right* tricks prepared at any given time.

Wait-a-minute... So, you're saying every prepared Wizard would use this spell daily? I just don't buy it. I've never even seen it in play (which, to me, is what makes it Theoretical Op). Its not even guaranteed to get a correct answer (though it does seem to approach 100% with enough repeated questions).

But its divination, right? And the caster "always has Mindblank" up, right? So, there's some time in the day when Mindblank cannot be up when Contact Other Plane is being used. So, the proposed Binder can use Astaroth, Diabolus of Baator's Divination ability to find out when that is on any given day, and strike then. Yup... Divination will tell the Binder when the caster is preparing spells (which will eventually have to happen), and the Binder strikes then...

Anyways, I'll stop now. Its impossible to beat every possible preparation a Wizard can have, and one can come up with any kind of combination to beat any kind of offense.

Bozwevial · « **Reply #146 on:** March 01, 2009, 10:56:20 AM »

Quote from: Anklebite on March 01, 2009, 07:23:31 AM

well, if we are gonna use AMF with spellcasting..... instead, cast shrink item on as large a volume of water as you can. tie this to the arrow. imbue the arrow with AMF, but in conjunction with the delay spell metamagic feat, delayed to one round.... arrow sticks in wizard, and one round later the AMF goes off, trapping the wizard inside his dome hat along with enough water to drown him.

use the hat against him

I know the spell specifies a "clothlike composition", but tying water to an arrow just sounds silly.

juton · « **Reply #147 on:** March 01, 2009, 11:50:05 AM »

Quote from: jameswilliamogle on March 01, 2009, 10:33:25 AM

Quote from: The_Mad_Linguist on March 01, 2009, 12:48:31 AM
He *did* specify a min/maxed caster.

It isn't so much that he has all the tricks prepared at once (although he well might), it's just that Contact Other Plane ensures that he has the *right* tricks prepared at any given time.
Wait-a-minute... So, you're saying every prepared Wizard would use this spell daily? I just don't buy it. I've never even seen it in play (which, to me, is what makes it Theoretical Op). Its not even guaranteed to get a correct answer (though it does seem to approach 100% with enough repeated questions).

But its divination, right? And the caster "always has Mindblank" up, right? So, there's some time in the day when Mindblank cannot be up when Contact Other Plane is being used. So, the proposed Binder can use Astaroth, Diabolus of Baator's Divination ability to find out when that is on any given day, and strike then. Yup... Divination will tell the Binder when the caster is preparing spells (which will eventually have to happen), and the Binder strikes then...

Anyways, I'll stop now. Its impossible to beat every possible preparation a Wizard can have, and one can come up with any kind of combination to beat any kind of offense.

Excellent find, you can't use that divination with mindblank up. The Wizard casts Contact Other Plane once a week, because he can't get more than a week's advice at a time. Its casting time is 10 minutes so that's a pretty big window.

Caelic · « **Reply #148 on:** March 01, 2009, 01:36:20 PM »

Quote from: jameswilliamogle on March 01, 2009, 10:33:25 AM

Anyways, I'll stop now. Its impossible to beat every possible preparation a Wizard can have, and one can come up with any kind of combination to beat any kind of offense.

Precisely, James. That's why I'm not participating in this much, and why I generally consider this type of thread to be an exercise in futility.

It's not that I don't believe a caster killer can kill a wizard. It's that I don't believe a caster killer can kill ANY wizard under ANY circumstances. The killer needs to be targeted at a specific wizard with specific defenses.

If we're targeting the nebulous concept of "What defenses could a wizard have?" we're trying to hit an impossible target; his options approach the infinite.

PhaedrusXY · « **Reply #149 on:** March 01, 2009, 02:59:06 PM »

Yes, but I believe it would be possible to actually build a wizard that could beat any non-casting "caster killer", because most of these "tricks" take up minimal amounts of the wizard's resources, and it would be in fact possible to combine them all on one character. You can't say the same about the non-casting "caster killer".

There was a thread a while back on 339 that proposed to test this. One person would build the "ultimate wizard", and post it, including prepared spells, etc. Then someone else would try to build a specific non-casting character to beat that wizard. The thread died before it really went anywhere, but I thought it sounded like a fun challenge.

mans0011 · « **Reply #150 on:** March 01, 2009, 03:12:20 PM »

Lycanthromancer took up this challenge back on the wizards board. He built core wizard 20 and the other guy had all splatbooks open to him. It was a slaughter. The other thing that's funny about this is that all a wizard has to do (if we're talking about a character who is in the world and not just some wizard sitting somewhere in the wilderness) is every now and again ask if someone is hunting him or trying to kill him. If that is the case, the wizard just starts teleporting around the prime material every couple of days. How is a mundane character going to keep up with that? Then, all the wizard has to do is make a safe house (tower) with all kinda of booby traps and make it impossible to sneak through and cast astral projection. Then make a clone, ready to accept his soul should his astral projection and his real body both die. Then again, the astrally projected wizard could keep his real body and the clone body in a bag of holding with a bottle of air (bodies shrunken of course). I don't think people really get that it doesn't take much for a wizard to be prepared against some sort of AMF wielding, death-dealing homicidal maniac. It's the same sort of things he prepares against when he goes adventuring. Though, by 20th level, wizards are essentially challenging lesser deities to duels. And, also, celerity+timestop is a two spell combo that just wins. Why would a wizard not have that? Especially if he sets it up as a contingent effect. "Should I about to get pwnsauced, cast celerity" then bam. He can do what he wants from there.

PhaedrusXY · « **Reply #151 on:** March 01, 2009, 03:22:48 PM »

Yeah, but the guy who challenged Lycanthromancer obviously didn't know WTF he was doing. I'd like to see some really good optimizers try that, against other equally good optimizers building the wizard. I think it should be possible to make an "indestructible" wizard (at least against non-casters), but the tricky part will be coming up with the requirements for the battle. If the non-caster has a wiz 17 cohort, then it's basically wiz 20 vs wiz 17 + some other dude. Likewise, if the "non-caster" is a 20th level ardent, that doesn't sound right either. But then you get into grey areas, like what about a 20th level binder? Is that a non-caster? I'd have to say yes, on that one, personally. What if he has 3 levels of blackguard?

And then, is the wizard allowed to change his prepared spells after the challenger is made, based on what he gets from a Contact Other Plane that he'd had prepared originally? I think this would have to be "yes", but the wizard would have had to have had the questions written down somewhere (with witnesses) before the challenger was declared. Hmm... maybe I should start a thread specifically devoted to this. Would some of you guys be interested?

Kuroimaken · « **Reply #152 on:** March 01, 2009, 03:52:04 PM »

Sure, it still sounds like fun.

To be fair, I think it's a little too hard for a single guy to take down a Wizard without backup. I'd say two guys minimum (one to disable the Wiz and the other to beat the snot out of him) would be necessary.

Prime32 · « **Reply #153 on:** March 01, 2009, 04:12:02 PM »

My favourite idea so far is the antimagic water arrow.

juton · « **Reply #154 on:** March 01, 2009, 04:24:47 PM »

I'd really like to see Lycanthromancer's Wizard build, if anyone has the link.

I think the best use of everyone's time is to learn some counters to the tricks a Wizard uses. I think the full TO Wizard is pretty rare out in the wild, we don't need a build that beats it, just his lazier cousins.

PhaedrusXY · « **Reply #155 on:** March 01, 2009, 04:30:18 PM »

Quote from: juton on March 01, 2009, 04:24:47 PM

I'd really like to see Lycanthromancer's Wizard build, if anyone has the link.

http://forums.gleemax.com/showpost.php?p=10582589

Quote

I think the best use of everyone's time is to learn some counters to the tricks a Wizard uses. I think the full TO Wizard is pretty rare out in the wild, we don't need a build that beats it, just his lazier cousins.

I don't see how that's fun at all. Then someone can always come along and say "yeah, but he could have done this". If we could actually build a wizard that it is impossible to beat without using another spellcaster, that would be quite a feat, I'd say. It would also be fun for people trying to beat it.

It would be along the lines of LoPs "Twice Betrayer of Shar", but with more specific requirements for challengers (his was basically for anyone to try and kill the character, and the only restriction was that you couldn't use some of his own tricks against him).

mans0011 · « **Reply #156 on:** March 01, 2009, 04:34:39 PM »

Phaedrus, I really don't see it happening. A mundane character and even most magical characters cannot get through Lycanthromancer's defense. Psionics isn't "magic" either, so would a 20th level psion work? Also, about the cohort... come on! If you start taking leadership, so will the wizard and that's just not fair because then you've got a level 20 wizard and a level 17 wizard. And then the whole point of the exercise is lost. I still think Monk might be a good anti caster. Or maybe a horizon walker for the dimension door ability. Sweet.

PhaedrusXY · « **Reply #157 on:** March 01, 2009, 04:39:27 PM »

In a transparency game (the default), psionics is affected by Spell Resistance, Dispel Magic, etc, and so is for all practical purposes just another form of "Magic". Binders have all supernatural abilities, though, so I don't think they'd count. We could also come up with some arbitrary threshold, like the challenger can't have higher than 6th level spells/powers, to allow things like Arcane Archers, Psychic Warriors, and heavily multiclassed gishes to give it a shot. Otherwise, yeah, I don't know if it would even be possible.

Also, using scrolls and things via UMD could be allowed, which would mean that the challenger could basically be a pseudo-caster, but this would also have the advantage of being a counter argument to the stupid "yeah, but it's just the spells that are overpowered" argument(s).

awaken DM golem · « **Reply #158 on:** March 01, 2009, 05:21:25 PM »

hmm ...

The Lurk's augments are (ex) at their base, but some of the stuff they do, require powerpoints, which certainly aren't (ex).
One of the Mind's Eye subs, gets a "tag" ability at 1st level, and a Metafaculty (9th level divination) at level 17 as a (ps).
Combined with Remote Viewing power, one can at least know what kind of Wizard yer up against, and keep track of it sort-of.
Additionally, the Lurk Aug's still work in an Anti-Magic area.

Don't know if this helps.
(probably not)

juton · « **Reply #159 on:** March 01, 2009, 07:25:01 PM »

I was thinking, the Wizard can get information about the future, but how many questions will he feel like asking? He gets 10 questions per casting of Contact other plane, so it's reasonable to assume he'll have general information, but how specific is he going to get?

My plan is find someway to dimensionally lock a large area once a Wizard's in it and then use Leadership to Zerg rush him with minions. A Wizard only has so many spells, he could probably kill several hundred low level characters no problem, but he might not be able to get the caster killer, as long as he can't run off and rest.

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Author Topic: Anti-caster build ideas? (Read 29632 times)