Author Topic: Most broken Core spells?  (Read 5856 times)

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Lycanthromancer

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Re: Most broken Core spells?
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2009, 02:44:50 AM »
Most spells that gives you continuous and enduring benefits for a single casting (except for those that merely restore the status quo), such as continual flame, explosive runes, animate dead, planar binding, wall of iron and so on. Granted, not all of them are broken, but the ability to, say, single-handedly raise armies with a one-time cost is incredibly unbalanced, especially since the resources are exceptionally easy to replenish.

Greater/teleport and similar spells are extremely broken, especially when coupled with divination spells. Scry 'n die is a broken tactic that's really hard to overcome on a continuous basis. It's far too easy to assassinate people when you can pop in unannounced, kill everything in sight, then pop back out again.

Also, a number of other spell-combos are broken, even if the individual spells are alright.
« Last Edit: February 10, 2009, 02:47:23 AM by Lycanthromancer »
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RobbyPants

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Re: Most broken Core spells?
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2009, 09:34:59 AM »
I'd argue that those spells are broken on the grounds that they don't offer a fight and alter too much. Hold person allows a save initially and subsequent saves every round. There is a chance that its affect on someone initially fails, and then they can potentially wiggle out of it in the very near future. On top of which, there are also ways to improve defense against including augmenting will saves, slippery mind, etc. Even flight, is reasonable for a melee character. There are tons of ways to get that option in a fair way, maybe not at the moment, but overall.
All in all, I think you make a good point here, in that spells like Hold Person at least offer a defense.

Of course, a smart caster will target weak defenses to the point where that defense might not even exist.  A caster can get the DC of a spell like Hold Person up much faster and higher than a person with a weak Will save can increase their saving mod.  So while the defense is technically there, it might end up only being a 5% chance of success.
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Anklebite

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Re: Most broken Core spells?
« Reply #22 on: February 10, 2009, 10:27:09 AM »
Better that than a 100% chance to be shut down by something with no required action on the caster's part. curse you, freedom of movement! and pal mind blank too! and your damn dog!
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Negative Zero

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Re: Most broken Core spells?
« Reply #23 on: February 10, 2009, 10:35:06 AM »
I'd argue that those spells are broken on the grounds that they don't offer a fight and alter too much. Hold person allows a save initially and subsequent saves every round. There is a chance that its affect on someone initially fails, and then they can potentially wiggle out of it in the very near future. On top of which, there are also ways to improve defense against including augmenting will saves, slippery mind, etc. Even flight, is reasonable for a melee character. There are tons of ways to get that option in a fair way, maybe not at the moment, but overall.
All in all, I think you make a good point here, in that spells like Hold Person at least offer a defense.

Of course, a smart caster will target weak defenses to the point where that defense might not even exist.  A caster can get the DC of a spell like Hold Person up much faster and higher than a person with a weak Will save can increase their saving mod.  So while the defense is technically there, it might end up only being a 5% chance of success.


I've got to disagree with this. Getting high saves is ridiculously easy compared to getting high DCs. It's quite possible for a character to break +100 on multiple saves by level 20, if that's what you build for. I challenge you to force a DC 100 Will save by level 20.

Anklebite

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Re: Most broken Core spells?
« Reply #24 on: February 10, 2009, 10:54:05 AM »
I challenge you to force a DC 100 Will save by level 20.

not really all that hard if you use a skill-based save DC.  now, trying to do that with hold person....
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RobbyPants

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Re: Most broken Core spells?
« Reply #25 on: February 10, 2009, 11:27:52 AM »
I've got to disagree with this. Getting high saves is ridiculously easy compared to getting high DCs. It's quite possible for a character to break +100 on multiple saves by level 20, if that's what you build for. I challenge you to force a DC 100 Will save by level 20.
I have to admit, I'm curious:  how do you get your saves to +100?
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Negative Zero

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Re: Most broken Core spells?
« Reply #26 on: February 10, 2009, 11:35:39 AM »
Get Charisma up to +7 or +10 or so with an appropriate race and templates, then spend the rest of your levels repeatedly applying it to saves.
As you can see here, there are a great many ways to apply Charisma to saves. It might take a bit of Alignment shifting to break 100 before 21, though, unless you're willing to use spells or items to help out your saves.

ninjarabbit

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Re: Most broken Core spells?
« Reply #27 on: February 10, 2009, 11:38:34 AM »
I've got to disagree with this. Getting high saves is ridiculously easy compared to getting high DCs. It's quite possible for a character to break +100 on multiple saves by level 20, if that's what you build for. I challenge you to force a DC 100 Will save by level 20.
I have to admit, I'm curious:  how do you get your saves to +100?

Shapechange or polymorph into shambling mound (immunity to electricity is Ex) + steadfast determination + lots of electricty attacks+ lots of con = big will and fort saves

LimaBeanMage

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Re: Most broken Core spells?
« Reply #28 on: February 10, 2009, 03:34:58 PM »
I'd argue that those spells are broken on the grounds that they don't offer a fight and alter too much. Hold person allows a save initially and subsequent saves every round. There is a chance that its affect on someone initially fails, and then they can potentially wiggle out of it in the very near future. On top of which, there are also ways to improve defense against including augmenting will saves, slippery mind, etc. Even flight, is reasonable for a melee character. There are tons of ways to get that option in a fair way, maybe not at the moment, but overall.
All in all, I think you make a good point here, in that spells like Hold Person at least offer a defense.

Of course, a smart caster will target weak defenses to the point where that defense might not even exist.  A caster can get the DC of a spell like Hold Person up much faster and higher than a person with a weak Will save can increase their saving mod.  So while the defense is technically there, it might end up only being a 5% chance of success.


I agree with you, a smart caster will be using his or her spells to the greatest advantage based upon the situation if winning is really the objective. They really should as well, it is just efficient and strategic gaming.

Though, as one-sided as it still may seem, a technical defense to the spell is still an absolute defense. If there is something to be exploited, in this case saving throws, then it can be exploited for all it is worth. The caster should optimize his or her attack strategy, however, the fighter should optimize his attack strategy as well. Of course, as it often is in combat, the key to victory may lie in your defense. The fighter, if given resources and an intelligent design, has the ability to increase that 5% by a sizable factor.

Your argument still has a ring of truth to it though, as most of the time casters need little optimizing compared to fighters for versatility and defense and will obtain more advantageous circumstances on average. I suppose what I am trying to sound out is that there is still a possibility for a defense, even if slim in some situations. The purportedly "broken" spells that I keep referring to even deny the possibility of salvation, save for one or two items like Holy Avenger or that shield... that I cannot remember the name of right now.... that offers anti-magic capabilities once per day.

Rebel7284

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Re: Most broken Core spells?
« Reply #29 on: February 10, 2009, 07:01:22 PM »
Antimagic Torc?
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Most broken Core spells?
« Reply #30 on: February 10, 2009, 08:13:32 PM »
Antimagic Torc?

Shrink item + giant pointy adamantine wizard hat.


But, yeah, he's talking about a different item... maybe it's in the MIC?
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RobbyPants

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Re: Most broken Core spells?
« Reply #31 on: February 10, 2009, 10:21:44 PM »
Antimagic Torc?

Shrink item + giant pointy adamantine wizard hat.
I wonder: what would be the rules for shooting something off of someone's head? :p

That'd be one hell of a surprise for the wizard.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

Bozwevial

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Re: Most broken Core spells?
« Reply #32 on: February 10, 2009, 10:41:50 PM »
You can snatch items with a normal disarm attempt, with a +4 bonus if the item is somewhat insecure (a hat seems easier to grab than a bracer, ring, or necklace). There's that feat from Complete Warrior that lets you make ranged disarm attempts. Does that work? I guess the item would land in a nearby square, rather than be in your hand.

Tshern

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Re: Most broken Core spells?
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2009, 12:01:20 PM »
Make the hat invisible. Invisibility can be made permanent on objects. To keep your saving grace in tact with a higher probability, put a real hat on it and make the adamantine one invisible. And, of course, comb your hair so that you hide it.

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Lycanthromancer

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Re: Most broken Core spells?
« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2009, 02:13:48 PM »
You could mess with people and put a (visible) small steel ring around the invisible cone-hat, with a continuous flame or a permanencied light spell on it. Make it just wide enough to slip halfway down the cone.

Just think about that for a moment. :P
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

Rebel7284

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Re: Most broken Core spells?
« Reply #35 on: February 11, 2009, 02:49:22 PM »
You could mess with people and put a (visible) small steel ring around the invisible cone-hat, with a continuous flame or a permanencied light spell on it. Make it just wide enough to slip halfway down the cone.

Just think about that for a moment. :P

Jesus!
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killercoffee

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Re: Most broken Core spells?
« Reply #36 on: February 11, 2009, 04:35:57 PM »
I'm surprised nobody mentioned wish yet. Sure, its not really broken by itself, but its the fact that it has so much potential for brokenness that makes it rather ridiculous. I mean...a high-level caster can give himself a wish SLA once per day with fiend of blasphemy, or make all his spells SLAs by shapechanging into a phaerimm...not to mention the classic efreeti trick. All it really takes is one wish, anyways, which you use to make an item that lets you use wish at will, which you use to win everything :smirk.

Shapechange was mentioned but it bears repeating because it's ridiculous. Best buff spell in the game.

A wide generalization is that pretty much any spell that is very powerful but balanced by major drawbacks is dangerous, since most of these drawbacks are easily avoided.

Edit: I forgot to mention Genesis, if you want to screw the idea of time in your campaign. Another powerful spell that is "balanced" by an easily avoided drawback.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2009, 04:38:40 PM by killercoffee »

RobbyPants

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Re: Most broken Core spells?
« Reply #37 on: February 12, 2009, 09:37:24 AM »
It is funny that one of the most abusable features of Wish is the ability to get more Wishes!
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Most broken Core spells?
« Reply #38 on: February 13, 2009, 04:19:05 PM »
It's like a frigging Tribble :P

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Anklebite

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Re: Most broken Core spells?
« Reply #39 on: February 13, 2009, 04:28:53 PM »
It's like a frigging Tribble :P



its harder to get more tribbles...

and with tribbles, at least you need to START with one  :D
I do not suffer from paranoia; I enjoy every second of it.
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