Author Topic: Min/Max in the Industrial Ages:  (Read 4983 times)

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woodenbandman

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Min/Max in the Industrial Ages:
« on: February 08, 2009, 10:17:35 PM »
2e Min/Max! who's ever played 2e and how do you like it?

I'm currently playing a character in a 2e game who is a Thief1/Wizard4. Illusions and Enchantments are fucking boss, and apparently Lightning bolt is like playing billiards. Multiclassing was awesome back then because classes were frontloaded as hell, if you were a ranger, and you took 1 rogue level, you could backstab for x2 damage per attack, and if you were a rogue and you took a ranger level, you could dual wield without penalty.

The stats actually mattered very little in 2e, it was all about your class/race choice and what spells you could cast. I kinda like that.

Nanshork

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Re: Min/Max in the Industrial Ages:
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2009, 10:39:51 PM »
The thing about multiclassing in 2E is that you HAVE to progress every class that you're using, the experience is split automatically.  Then again, high level multiclass characters are always more powerful than their single-level counterparts.  Then there's dual-classing, but that's a wholly different beast.  And stats matter if you can get them high, otherwise they're out unless you have to make an ability check.  Optimization is mainly about kits, finding the kit that gives you bonuses for what you want to do and penalties about things that you don't care about.

Edit: There's that and the fact that only certain races can multiclass certain classes and you have to do weird math for hit-points (that always bugged me).

Edit x2:  Actually, it appears that Ranger/ Rogue is not a valid multiclass.  Huh.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2009, 10:46:27 PM by Nanshork »
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Min/Max in the Industrial Ages:
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2009, 11:48:53 PM »
Chromatic orb rules.
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Surreal

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Re: Min/Max in the Industrial Ages:
« Reply #3 on: February 09, 2009, 02:12:03 AM »
I remember there was that whole weapon mastery/supremacy (whatever it was called) that let you increase the damage dice of your weapon. So pick up the No-Dachi which was base 1d20 and see if you could argue it up to 1d100 :P Of course, then you'd have a dm like me who owns a couple d30's.
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Re: Min/Max in the Industrial Ages:
« Reply #4 on: February 09, 2009, 02:35:14 AM »
I'm not to familiar with 2e as I am with the later editions but I do agree with you that it has some merits that make it superior to the newer ones.
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Chemus

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Re: Min/Max in the Industrial Ages:
« Reply #5 on: February 09, 2009, 04:17:50 AM »
I'm also currently embroiled in a 2e campaign. We just re-learned (from the winning side) that anyone with a 13+ Int gets a save to notice a creature affected by invisibility.

Remember that firing into melee is fun for the whole family; you might hit a target other than the one you're aiming at. Your target and the folks around it have an equal chance to be hit, unless their sizes are different.

If you're a gnome illusionist, look at the Imagemaker kit (from the Complete Book of Gnomes and Halflings p. 50); even critters that would normally be immune to illusions are able to be taken in by your spells, and all others are at -2. Plus, duration of your illusions is doubled (+2d6 r. for concentration). You do lose out on two more schools though; greater div. and conj./Summ. (in addition to necromancy, invoc./evoc., and abjuration) You may be a one-trick pony, but that trick can rock the house! Make an illusionary pit, and kill your adversaries; illusionary walls that your companions can shoot through; 'poison' gas clouds, and more! And that all from the silent 1st level illusion phantasmal force! When you get sound as a 2nd level spell, you can just about go to town! Plus you can move from your current position, with the illusion following behind you/ leading the way.

Charm Person just eats enemies up too :) your new best friend will hinder his other friends' attacks on you and if he's dumb enough you can wait a couple of months before he even gets a chance to save again.

As a rogue, look for ways to be undetectable; backstab only works from the rear of a creature that's unaware of your presence.

Flanking isn't necessary; facing rules are in place; a rear attack gets +2 to hit, and no shield bonus!

I don't recall weapon mastery Surreal, where is that from? (The books I don't have are related mostly to the later stuff like Skills and Powers.)
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Nanshork

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Re: Min/Max in the Industrial Ages:
« Reply #6 on: February 09, 2009, 11:52:01 AM »
Skills and Powers was so broken.  :D
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Caelic

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Re: Min/Max in the Industrial Ages:
« Reply #7 on: February 09, 2009, 06:11:55 PM »
Skills and Powers (and Spells and Magic) were so broken that many people don't consider them the same edition; those books are frequently referred to as "2.5."

Heck, I played my first broken Artificer in second edition.  He was a dual-classed Fighter/Artificer; in second edition, the Artificer's specialty was making temporary magic items.  (Permanent magic items were MUCH harder to make than in third edition.)

Bowan was an archer; his specialty was "temporary" Arrows of Slaying (which were a HELL of a lot more effective in second edition.)


Nanshork

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Re: Min/Max in the Industrial Ages:
« Reply #8 on: February 09, 2009, 07:09:18 PM »
I've never played a game with Skills and Powers or Spells and Magic, so no broken characters for me.
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Caelic

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Re: Min/Max in the Industrial Ages:
« Reply #9 on: February 09, 2009, 07:47:51 PM »
It was still possible to get some fairly broken characters.  Dual-classing was still king, and some of the multiclass combos were also nice; I was always partial to Druid/Magic-User.


Nanshork

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Re: Min/Max in the Industrial Ages:
« Reply #10 on: February 09, 2009, 07:49:16 PM »
The problem is that they were only broken in high level play, and most second edition games I've ever played started at or near first level.
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Caelic

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Re: Min/Max in the Industrial Ages:
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2009, 08:00:23 PM »
The problem is that they were only broken in high level play, and most second edition games I've ever played started at or near first level.

Very few were as broken as a broken third edition character in any case.  However, the nice thing about 2e characters is that they weren't useless until they hit "payoff level."  A druid/magic-user was useful all the way through his career; on average, he'd be about a level behind single-class characters.


Nanshork

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Re: Min/Max in the Industrial Ages:
« Reply #12 on: February 09, 2009, 08:01:33 PM »
True on all counts.
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Chemus

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Re: Min/Max in the Industrial Ages:
« Reply #13 on: February 09, 2009, 08:09:39 PM »
Yeah, as long as you can make the alignments work out, you can multi-class or dual-class ranger or druid in any instance you could have used fighter of cleric, respectively. In the Forgotten Realms with Meilikki, you can have a Ranger/Druid and be able to use up to chainmail, IIRC.

I never really optimized much in 2e; I just did things like used the thief-swashbuckler kit to get rapier at full THAC0, and then used two via Two-Weapon style specialization. 1d6+1 is nice, and the faster progression made the THAC0 high...er... low enough to matter.

Wizards still rock; as woodenbandman noted, they just bring so much power (except at very low levels when they die way too easily) to the party.

Cleric, bard and thief go up in levels quite a bit faster than other classes, so a gnome cleric/thief (the only way I know of making a cleric/thief) increase in both levels almost as fast as a wizard, even at high levels (415,000 per level rather than 375,000 per level).
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woodenbandman

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Re: Min/Max in the Industrial Ages:
« Reply #14 on: February 09, 2009, 08:11:32 PM »
Dude I had 9 hp for the longest time and I was level 3.

Caelic

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Re: Min/Max in the Industrial Ages:
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2009, 08:54:42 PM »
Some other thoughts:

1. Fighter didn't work particularly well as a multiclass option in most cases.  The loss of hit points from your other class and the need to wear lighter armor undermined most of what the fighter class brought to the table in the first place--particularly since, under base 2e rules, a multiclass fighter couldn't specialize in a weapon.  Fighter/Cleric was a reasonably good multiclass.

2. If you had the stats for it, a few levels of fighter and then dual-classing to another class kicked a lot of butt.  You could get exceptional strength, fighter Con bonuses, and weapon specialization, for the price of a handful of experience points.

3. In low-level campaigns, multiclass characters were quite strong.  In mid-level campaigns, multiclass characters could be extremely strong.  In high-level campaigns, single-classed human characters became dominant (since they could advance to any level, and most demihumans couldn't.)

4. Theoretically, Elven thieves should rule the world; they had unlimited level advancement and thousands of years of lifespan in which to level up. :)

Straw_Man

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Re: Min/Max in the Industrial Ages:
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2009, 08:57:48 PM »

  Nice thread Woodenbandman, awesome namem :D :P

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Re: Min/Max in the Industrial Ages:
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2009, 10:05:42 PM »
My personal favorite 2e system was the psionics. For one thing, it actually felt like psionics, as opposed to just another kind of magic, as in 3e. Second, some of the powers were totally broken. Like how no one got saves against the entire telepathic discipline!

Any book that allows a first level character to dominate a 20th level character, with no save, is fun in my book. Of course, he could only do it for one round, but that's long enough to make that master thief walk himself off the cliff...

Too, it had some really fun powers. Some of my favorites were in psychoportation, like reaching into a random outer plane and dragging a random creature out. Oh, and it's totally uncontrolled, so make sure to put it in the middle of your enemies! Not to mention the High Science, which allows you to send that pesky tower filled with guards off to the Abyss for a little while (as the description says, never know what'll be in it when it gets back!)

Nanshork

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Re: Min/Max in the Industrial Ages:
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2009, 10:25:19 PM »
Psionics were  :censored up.  You could have an entire psionic battle before any non-psionicist could roll initiative.  I refuse to touch the stuff.
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Straw_Man

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Re: Min/Max in the Industrial Ages:
« Reply #19 on: February 09, 2009, 10:57:53 PM »

  Speed of thought baby  :cloud9
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Such thoughts lead inevitably to transformation sequences."