Author Topic: Most broken Core spells?  (Read 6587 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Prime32

  • Administrator
  • Organ Grinder
  • *
  • Posts: 7534
  • Modding since 03/12/10
Most broken Core spells?
« on: February 08, 2009, 04:36:50 PM »
Yeah, I know about the standard abuses but I just wanted to put them in order. :D (and I don't want to miss anything)
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Lycanthromancer

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 4003
    • Email
Re: Most broken Core spells?
« Reply #1 on: February 08, 2009, 04:46:28 PM »
Anything that guarantees that a tactic simply won't work by 100% negating it. Like mind blank for anything mind-affecting and true seeing for illusions; not to mention antimagic field, which is in a class all its own (I mean, it even castrates 9th level spells). Likewise, save-or-???s that screw you regardless, with no recourse. Look at solid fog for details.

Spells like flesh to salt and wall of iron that can make infinite amounts of money with minimal investiture.

Also, single spells that can make an entire subset of classes useless. Polymorph and summon spells that replace beatsticks, and arcane lock/knock and mount, which pretty much single-handedly replace rogues.
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

I dare anyone to find a hole in that logic.
______________________________________
[/spoiler]I'm a writer. These are my stories. Some are even SFW! (Warning: Mostly Gay.)
My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
+1 Lycanthromancer
Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

PhaedrusXY

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8022
  • Advanced Spambot
Re: Most broken Core spells?
« Reply #2 on: February 08, 2009, 04:49:03 PM »
(Lesser/Greater) Planar Binding. Astral Projection (gained via Lesser Planar Binding. :P ). Shapechange. Polymorph Any Object (because it can be permanent. I think Alter Self and Polymorph are actually ok... Overpowered, but not broken.). Gate.
« Last Edit: February 08, 2009, 04:51:10 PM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Takanaki

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 506
Re: Most broken Core spells?
« Reply #3 on: February 08, 2009, 05:35:46 PM »
Does any Cleric Domain/Class or Ranger/Druid/Bard get access to Solid Fog?

skydragonknight

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3297
Re: Most broken Core spells?
« Reply #4 on: February 08, 2009, 05:54:07 PM »
Maze. Otto's Irresistible Dance.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

woodenbandman

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2188
    • Email
Re: Most broken Core spells?
« Reply #5 on: February 08, 2009, 06:00:09 PM »
shrink item, Shadow Conjuration (especially with a SCM),

ninjarabbit

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1442
    • Email
Re: Most broken Core spells?
« Reply #6 on: February 08, 2009, 06:16:35 PM »
freedom of movement
divine power
web
glitterdust
enervation when combined with metamagic feats and arcane thesis
entangle
reverse gravity

skydragonknight

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3297
Re: Most broken Core spells?
« Reply #7 on: February 08, 2009, 06:31:04 PM »
Holy Word and it's friends.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Dictum Mortuum

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1160
  • always female suspects
    • Email
Re: Most broken Core spells?
« Reply #8 on: February 08, 2009, 06:45:46 PM »
freedom of movement
divine power
web
glitterdust
enervation when combined with metamagic feats and arcane thesis
entangle
reverse gravity


arguably, some of them are just overpowered or extremely good for their level. For example, entangle is a solid spell, but not gamebreaking in any way :S
Dictum Mortuum's Handbooks: My personal character optimization blog.


Emy

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 489
Re: Most broken Core spells?
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2009, 07:23:37 PM »
freedom of movement
divine power
web
glitterdust
enervation when combined with metamagic feats and arcane thesis
entangle
reverse gravity


arguably, some of them are just overpowered or extremely good for their level. For example, entangle is a solid spell, but not gamebreaking in any way :S

It's true. Those don't break the game like, say, infinite wealth does.

Operation Shoestring

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 937
  • Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
    • Email
Re: Most broken Core spells?
« Reply #10 on: February 08, 2009, 08:01:11 PM »
I would call both Freedom of Movement and Windwall, if not broken, at least unfair.

You have to devote your entire build to making a good Archer or grappler, and then the Caster negates your entire point with one spell.

Not "makes it hard for you to do what you are meant to", outright, stonewall, stops you.  This is in no way fair or cool.

Freedom of Movement giving +20 to avoid being grappled is fine.  Heck, +40 would be okay, if less than fair.  Outright preventing grappling is, as my buddy Kantolin says, a "You must be this tall to ride" feature, and really rather stupid/annoying.

Shadowhunter

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1003
Re: Most broken Core spells?
« Reply #11 on: February 08, 2009, 08:10:33 PM »
In the same vein, Color Spray and Sleep.
Though to be honest, they're not good at lvl 10, in difference from Entangle which still can be annoying.

I'm with you on the Metamagic Enervation.
For a 9th level slot you gain a twinned enervation basically, with Energy Drain.
Energy Drains gravy, the increased lasting time and the chance for actual Drain, are pretty irrelevant since you probably won't survive the encounter where you got them in the first place.
Now, to mimic this, a Twinned Enervation. That's level 8.
Arcane Thesis and Incantatrix, it's lvl 6.
Sorcerer with easy/practical (can't remember which one, might be both..the one not from a Dragon magazine). lvl 5.
Hell, let's split the ray... lvl 6.
 :rollseyes
Enervation-spam isn't fun. Not in the long run atleast.

I would call both Freedom of Movement and Windwall, if not broken, at least unfair.

You have to devote your entire build to making a good Archer or grappler, and then the Caster negates your entire point with one spell.

Not "makes it hard for you to do what you are meant to", outright, stonewall, stops you.  This is in no way fair or cool.

Freedom of Movement giving +20 to avoid being grappled is fine.  Heck, +40 would be okay, if less than fair.  Outright preventing grappling is, as my buddy Kantolin says, a "You must be this tall to ride" feature, and really rather stupid/annoying.

I think the Force enhancment to a bow negates Wind Wall, but I'm not sure.

And regarding infinite wealth.
An idea I've had spinning in the back of my head for quite some time now would be som kind of Inevitable that hunted down individuals that destabilize the economy. Since that only leads to everybody getting poorer except him/her, I could see it as an Evil act.
Or maybe even some secret society of people with these ideals.
"Sure, go ahead, make the cow into salt and sell it"
You're gonna regret it though
[Spoiler]
Quote from: Runestar
the most effective optimization is the one you can actually get away with.  :smirk

Quote from: Vinom
(A group of nerds are called a murder because like crows we are anti-social, like shiny things, and often squack at each other over nothing for hours)

I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/quote]
[/spoiler]

Binder? You're Welcome

Zceryll makes Binders go from tier 3 to tier 2.
Cagemarrow is a Genius

Before giving the advice that build X would be better of with Fist of the Forest, take a long, good look at Primal Living. Twice.


Emy

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 489
Re: Most broken Core spells?
« Reply #13 on: February 08, 2009, 09:23:56 PM »

sonofzeal

  • Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 317
Re: Most broken Core spells?
« Reply #14 on: February 08, 2009, 10:21:39 PM »
Top 5, in order:
1) Shapechange; nab spellcasting of a class you don't have, win game.
2) Astral Projection; takes no effort to bork utterly
3) Gate; would be higher but the cost is kinda steep... unless you can open it under people's feet for a no-save, no-SR instadeath, in which case it's #1.
4) PAO; there's limits on its power, but not very many.  Infinite duration is borked.
5) Time Stop; casting time should be one full round.  Huge advantage, but popular options (Forcecage, cloudkill, summons) can be predicted and countered.

Honourable mentions:
Commune is campaign-altering in most cases; should have a cost per-question.
Explosive Runes is horribly abusable when set off deliberately; should have a cost per casting.
Feeblemind is at +4 against those who have the most to lose... why?

Operation Shoestring

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 937
  • Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
    • Email
Re: Most broken Core spells?
« Reply #15 on: February 09, 2009, 06:17:21 AM »
Feeblemind is at +4 against those who have the most to lose... why?

Because otherwise it'd be pretty useless?  It;s a will save, and casters (which are the ones it really hurts) all have good will saves.

Sure, you can feeblemind non-casters, but what's the point.  It's not "have most to lose" but "are worth Targeting with the spell in the first place"

And i just realized that Lycan already said most of what iw as getting at in my prior post.

RobbyPants

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 7139
Re: Most broken Core spells?
« Reply #16 on: February 09, 2009, 10:36:36 AM »
Anything that guarantees that a tactic simply won't work by 100% negating it. Like mind blank for anything mind-affecting and true seeing for illusions; not to mention antimagic field, which is in a class all its own (I mean, it even castrates 9th level spells). Likewise, save-or-???s that screw you regardless, with no recourse. Look at solid fog for details.
I would call both Freedom of Movement and Windwall, if not broken, at least unfair.

You have to devote your entire build to making a good Archer or grappler, and then the Caster negates your entire point with one spell.

Not "makes it hard for you to do what you are meant to", outright, stonewall, stops you.  This is in no way fair or cool.

Freedom of Movement giving +20 to avoid being grappled is fine.  Heck, +40 would be okay, if less than fair.  Outright preventing grappling is, as my buddy Kantolin says, a "You must be this tall to ride" feature, and really rather stupid/annoying.
I'm still sort of iffy on this one.  I agree that it sucks to have your whole schtick thwarted by a single spell, but lots of things thwart lots of narrowly-focused builds.  I always thought, in general, it was a poor decision to focus your character to one thing.  You should always have a backup plan.

Sure, Illusion and Enchantment can each be stopped by a single spell each, but a wizard still has six other schools to choose from.

Sure, FoM stops grapplers, but so does about fifty other things.

Doesn't Hold Person stop about anything other than psionics?

Flight thwarts melee (at least until melee gets flight).

I'm not trying to say that it isn't very potent, or even overpowered, but lots of spells stop lots of tactics.  When does it go from being a good tactical decision to overpowered to broken?  I guess some of this depends on which end of the spell you're on :p

My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

sonofzeal

  • Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 317
Re: Most broken Core spells?
« Reply #17 on: February 09, 2009, 03:59:23 PM »
Because otherwise it'd be pretty useless?  It;s a will save, and casters (which are the ones it really hurts) all have good will saves.

Sure, you can feeblemind non-casters, but what's the point.  It's not "have most to lose" but "are worth Targeting with the spell in the first place"

And i just realized that Lycan already said most of what iw as getting at in my prior post.
But arcane casters generally dump Wis, so their Will save is usually substantially lower than divine casters, who also lose the ability to cast spells.  Also screwed by it - anyone who casts spells, uses infusions, manifests psionics, has invocations, relies on clever tactics (like a Rogue or BCer), or has any class features at all tied to Int or Cha (Factotum, Swashbuckler, Marshal, Knight, etc).

Some of those get good Will saves, some don't, but only Arcane casters get that +4-to-DC.

LimaBeanMage

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 75
    • Email
Re: Most broken Core spells?
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2009, 07:47:09 PM »
Anything that guarantees that a tactic simply won't work by 100% negating it. Like mind blank for anything mind-affecting and true seeing for illusions; not to mention antimagic field, which is in a class all its own (I mean, it even castrates 9th level spells). Likewise, save-or-???s that screw you regardless, with no recourse. Look at solid fog for details.
I would call both Freedom of Movement and Windwall, if not broken, at least unfair.

You have to devote your entire build to making a good Archer or grappler, and then the Caster negates your entire point with one spell.

Not "makes it hard for you to do what you are meant to", outright, stonewall, stops you.  This is in no way fair or cool.

Freedom of Movement giving +20 to avoid being grappled is fine.  Heck, +40 would be okay, if less than fair.  Outright preventing grappling is, as my buddy Kantolin says, a "You must be this tall to ride" feature, and really rather stupid/annoying.
I'm still sort of iffy on this one.  I agree that it sucks to have your whole schtick thwarted by a single spell, but lots of things thwart lots of narrowly-focused builds.  I always thought, in general, it was a poor decision to focus your character to one thing.  You should always have a backup plan.

Sure, Illusion and Enchantment can each be stopped by a single spell each, but a wizard still has six other schools to choose from.

Sure, FoM stops grapplers, but so does about fifty other things.

Doesn't Hold Person stop about anything other than psionics?

Flight thwarts melee (at least until melee gets flight).

I'm not trying to say that it isn't very potent, or even overpowered, but lots of spells stop lots of tactics.  When does it go from being a good tactical decision to overpowered to broken?  I guess some of this depends on which end of the spell you're on :p



I'd argue that those spells are broken on the grounds that they don't offer a fight and alter too much. Hold person allows a save initially and subsequent saves every round. There is a chance that its affect on someone initially fails, and then they can potentially wiggle out of it in the very near future. On top of which, there are also ways to improve defense against including augmenting will saves, slippery mind, etc. Even flight, is reasonable for a melee character. There are tons of ways to get that option in a fair way, maybe not at the moment, but overall.

FoM, True Seeing, and Mind Blank, on the complete opposite hand, are essentially free get-out-of-jail cards. Once cast, there is no opposition to them, and they boil down to "I cast a spell,  now you're useless." scenarios. The only way around them, if they are not innate, is dispel magic or antimagic. We can all rest assured that most of the people that are sticking to one category of combat, such as a grapple, will not have access to those trump cards.

I think the general debate, though, for these spells revolves not on who they hurt, but rather how much of the game they give or take. Mind Blank and True Seeing negate two entire schools. I don't even want to try and count the number of spells, Sp abilities, Su abilities, and items that they just up front say "No" to. Like Shapechange, they give or take a chunk of the game. Shapechange gives you an rather weighty proportion, if not way too much, of the game as your play thing, hence broken. True Seeing takes a portion of the game that you normally have access to and rips from your option list, hence broken, as on opposite spectrum of Shapechange.

What further makes these spells unfair is that they are "defensive" in nature. Shapechange doesn't target enemies, so naturally there is no save against them or anything really that a person could do, save for counter-spelling. The same idea applies to FoM. It targets you, so your enemies don't get a say in the matter, they just feel the effects.

PlzBreakMyCampaign

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1373
  • Immune to Critical Hits as a Fairness Elemental
Re: Most broken Core spells?
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2009, 02:24:28 AM »
Anything that guarantees that a tactic simply won't work by 100% negating it. Like mind blank for anything mind-affecting and true seeing for illusions; not to mention antimagic field, which is in a class all its own (I mean, it even castrates 9th level spells). Likewise, save-or-???s that screw you regardless, with no recourse. Look at solid fog for details.
I would call both Freedom of Movement and Windwall, if not broken, at least unfair.
...
Freedom of Movement giving +20 to avoid being grappled is fine.  Heck, +40 would be okay, if less than fair.  Outright preventing grappling is, as my buddy Kantolin says, a "You must be this tall to ride" feature, and really rather stupid/annoying.
Sure, FoM stops grapplers, but so does about fifty other things.
I'd argue that those spells are broken on the grounds that they don't offer a fight and alter too much. Hold person allows a save initially and subsequent saves every round. There is a chance that its affect on someone initially fails, and then they can potentially wiggle out of it in the very near future. On top of which, there are also ways to improve defense against including augmenting will saves, slippery mind, etc. Even flight, is reasonable for a melee character. There are tons of ways to get that option in a fair way, maybe not at the moment, but overall.

FoM, True Seeing, and Mind Blank, on the complete opposite hand, are essentially free get-out-of-jail cards. Once cast, there is no opposition to them, and they boil down to "I cast a spell,  now you're useless." scenarios. The only way around them, if they are not innate, is dispel magic or antimagic. We can all rest assured that most of the people that are sticking to one category of combat, such as a grapple, will not have access to those trump cards.
...
The same idea applies to FoM. It targets you, so your enemies don't get a say in the matter, they just feel the effects.
Yup, the problem is casters, by a strict interpretation, can negate everything a grappler can do and there is nothing he can do about it. The point of cambat is supposed to be a back and forth. To fix this complete shutdown of a very interesting mechanic other DM's campaigns thought along these lines [make of it what you will]:

1) FoM allows weasling out of grapples by moving quickly and magically away like a free escape artist check. 2) grapplers who lack this spell can't 'keep up' allowing distance to accumulate, ending the grapple. 3) if a grapple also has a permanent FoM spell on then he should be even more used to keeping up with the magical effect of the weasling away. 4) This inference of FoM countering FoM allows combat to stay on more equal terms without magic being so much of a trump card

BTW... I really hope this was the intended since how loooong 1 FoM lasts and how low level a spell it is. Apparently this makes me a monktard, whatever that means.
« Last Edit: February 24, 2009, 02:33:00 PM by PlzBreakMyCampaign »
[Spoiler]
Quote
An interesting read, nice to see a civil discussion
The point of Spell Resistance is to make it harder to get buffed.
And healed. Don't forget that.
Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.
[/Spoiler]

Old Geezer's Law of Hobby Taste: The more objectively inconsequential a hobby is, the more disagreements within the community will be expressed in outrageously insulting, overblown, and ludicrously emotionally laden terms.

More Funny than Humble[Spoiler]
Quote from: PlzBreakMyCampaign
Your a shifter... you have all you ever need.
It blows MoMF out of the water

But if your greedy for more [Wish] for something that only effects you, like another class level or two that doesn't count against your ECL.
Quote from: hungryhungryhippo987
Yes, I'm the 3.0 "Masters of the Wild" shifter, the awesome kind. My favorite form to take is Force Dragon. Yes, I am immortal ... My character is hands down the coolest guy in the campaign and there is nothing I could possibly want.
PBMC gets a cookie for DotA r