CO team, what level adventures?

[AlisAtAn]

I`m thinking of running a CO game, so I`m wondering, how tough should the enemies be to challenge a CO team?

I`ll risk borrowing this scale, courtesy of JanusJones:

1. "I'm a ROLE-player!": This is the dimwitted "I took WP Focus 'cuz my wizard has this dagger he really likes!" level.  Woo.

2. Competent: A Wizard with Color Spray at 1st.  This is the level for most competent players, at which they don't make DUMB moves and know what things do.

3. Slick: This is when some totally legal, inarguable, but pretty unique and effective tricks come out.  Entangling Exhalatiion on a 1st-level DFA, Tomb-Tainted Soul on a Dread Necro, Dragonfire Strike + Shape Soulmeld - Dissolving Spittle for a 3d6 touch attack at-will at level 1, etc.

4. Slightly Cheesy: This is where things are still legal, but you run the risk of annoying a DM.  Examples include using the Half-Minotaur, White Dragonspawn Kobold + 1 level of Binder as a 1-level entry into Anima Mage, etc.

5. Limburger: Pun-pun's the worst of these, but there's a big list.  Candles of Invocation, using Racial Emulation and Assume Supernatural Ability to change into a crazy templated were-form with a Changeling at 1st, etc.  These are pretty much game-breaking and not worth it, on the whole.

In that scale, I`d place the optimal gaming enviroment game at 3 (Just my personal opinion, feel free to disagree).

From lack of a better measuring stick(The CR system doesnt work very well), we`ll  use the levelstamp on premade adventures.

Example: "A first level CO party should be able to clear out a lvl4 adventure without too much hassle."

[Apupunchau]

Interesting scale although I'm kind of insulted that being a ROLE-player is associated with being a dimwitted. Just because I write a long back story and talk in character doesn't mean I haven't looked around and built a character that isn't going to work.

[PhoenixInferno]

Interesting scale although I'm kind of insulted that being a ROLE-player is associated with being a dimwitted. Just because I write a long back story and talk in character doesn't mean I haven't looked around and built a character that isn't going to work.

The person that makes the statement in (1) is dimwitted because he does not understand the Stormwind Fallacy.

You, may not be.

I like (2), actually.  It allows you to demonstrate rules proficiency/mastery, while allowing almost any other player in a game to contribute meaningfully, (almost) regardless of their build decisions.

[Tshern]

Interesting scale although I'm kind of insulted that being a ROLE-player is associated with being a dimwitted. Just because I write a long back story and talk in character doesn't mean I haven't looked around and built a character that isn't going to work.

Because that thing in JJ's sure as hell is not a joke referring to the users whining about the CO boards taking away roleplaying from D&D. Stormwind fallacy deals with this in great detail.

Edit: Sigh, PI beat me to it.

[AlisAtAn]

Actually the point is that you can ROLE-play without wasting precious feats (among other things). Optimizers can roleplay too. Its just that they don`t take 2 dagger feats with there mage because the char has one his granddad made for his 10th bursday. 

EDIT: Hmm. I belive ninja`d is the term used when this happens. Oh well.

[PhoenixInferno]

Edit: Sigh, PI beat me to it.

Its good to be back

[AlisAtAn]

Edit: Sigh, PI beat me to it.

Its good to be back

How come you went missing at 339? Mods choosing trolls over you?

[Tshern]

Edit: Sigh, PI beat me to it.

Its good to be back

Good to have you back, 339's entertainment level dropped by around 70% when you left. You should sig the new posting guideline thread, it is somehow an integral part of you. It's the same thing with that avatar.

You wouldn't happen to have your Kalashtar Dervish saved somewhere? That's been one of my favourite 'custom classes' ever.

[Apupunchau]

I wasn't around on the WotC boards all that long so I'm not up on everything that's gone on and I will shamelessly admit I have no clue what the Stormwind fallacy. But anyway so the person in 1) is saying he's an RPer do cover up his stupidity in wasting a feat I got that now. I to would go got 2) I think a lot of people who are competent but not true optimizers come to the optimization boards to get ideas on what they should be doing, but these people (like myself) might want to join in these games and they won't want to die every five seconds because the game is geared toward the other players who can consistently kill things exponentially higher level then them and they just can't (at least not yet).

Edit: wow the board warns me that some one else was typing and posting while i was typing and says I may want to review what they said. That is so nifty.

[AlisAtAn]

I agree with 2 being best for normal games. But for a CO game with a semblance of balance I think 3 is nice. 4 would be giving the DM a few headaches when he runs out of enemies to throw at his lvl 10 party.

[PhoenixInferno]

You wouldn't happen to have your Kalashtar Dervish saved somewhere? That's been one of my favourite 'custom classes' ever.

I do not believe so, but I will attempt to dig it out of the WotC archives.  Search is not keyed to membership, you understand.

[AfterCrescent]

I agree with 2 being best for normal games. But for a CO game with a semblance of balance I think 3 is nice. 4 would be giving the DM a few headaches when he runs out of enemies to throw at his lvl 10 party.

I think it all really depends on who you are playing with. If everyone wants to play at 2, you optimize the encounters for 2, etc. Just make sure to get your players' opinions first. That's how I'm doing it.

Another thing I'd advise is starting at a lower level that you feel comfortable with so you can optimize encounters and build up from there.  It's much easier to under-optimize and upgrade than it is to over-optimize and TPK your party *shrug*

[Squash Monster]

Level 2 and 3 are both fun to play with.  I really enjoy the thought that goes into level 3 builds and most of the builds I make are around that level, but 2 is still really accessible.

The best thing about level 2 is that you can do one weird or quirky thing in what would otherwise be a level 3 build and end up with a build that's as powerful as the level 2 types but as intricate as a level 3.  I think it's the best level for getting people of different skill levels together.

[MittenNinja]

Level 2 and 3 are both fun to play with.  I really enjoy the thought that goes into level 3 builds and most of the builds I make are around that level, but 2 is still really accessible.

The best thing about level 2 is that you can do one weird or quirky thing in what would otherwise be a level 3 build and end up with a build that's as powerful as the level 2 types but as intricate as a level 3.  I think it's the best level for getting people of different skill levels together.

I agree 100%

[Akula]

Edit: Sigh, PI beat me to it.

Its good to be back

Still got the fastest keyboard in the west.
On a more serious note 2 is likely the level that a game will get the most players and interest at, 3 is the level where most CO exclusive games start at. Though I've seen both ramp up as the game progresses.

[BowenSilverclaw]

Personally I prefer 3, but I can enjoy 2 just as well and don't mind a little 4 every now and then

~Bowen

[DaveTheMagicWeasel]

And the Lord spake, saying,

"First shalt thou take out the Holy Splat Books, then shalt thou optimize to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt optimize to, and the number of the optimizing shall be three. Four shalt thou not optimize to, neither optimize thou to two, excepting that thou then tweaketh thine build to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Optimized Character towards thy foe, who being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it."

Amen.

[Tshern]

Using Monty Python to fight against splatbooks?! You can't use awesome to battle cool! That just doesn't work.

[Shadeseraph]

3 and 2, in that order. I'm not lactose intolerant, but I prefer not going too far with the cheese. The only time I tried a "4" character... Well, my DM wasn't prepared.

[AlisAtAn]

And the Lord spake, saying,

"First shalt thou take out the Holy Splat Books, then shalt thou optimize to three, no more, no less. Three shall be the number thou shalt optimize to, and the number of the optimizing shall be three. Four shalt thou not optimize to, neither optimize thou to two, excepting that thou then tweaketh thine build to three. Five is right out. Once the number three, being the third number, be reached, then lobbest thou thy Holy Optimized Character towards thy foe, who being naughty in my sight, shall snuff it."

Amen.

The profet speaks! Everyone join me in hallelujah!