Polymorph, Wild Shape and Shapechange, oh my! (comparison charts)

[Surreal]

In the "type change" row, it says "self, or ......" which means you can change into something with the same type as yourself, or any of the following listed. I didn't have much room to work with, so I had to abbreviate as much as possible.

I've updated with wilding clasps.

[Ezvir]

Did you consider the implications of the polymorph subschool rules? Alter self, polymorph and shapechage belong to that subschool and the subschool rules apply to them unless overruled in the spell's existing rules text.
Specifically hit points don't change with con according to polymorph subschool rules and since the existing rules text of polymorph doesn't adress hp changing with con in any way that should also apply to polymorph and shapchange, should it not?

[Kuroimaken]

Did you consider the implications of the polymorph subschool rules? Alter self, polymorph and shapechage belong to that subschool and the subschool rules apply to them unless overruled in the spell's existing rules text.
Specifically hit points don't change with con according to polymorph subschool rules and since the existing rules text of polymorph doesn't adress hp changing with con in any way that should also apply to polymorph and shapchange, should it not?

Actually, the rules of the polymorph subschool don't apply to polymorph and shapechange.

[Ezvir]

For the purpose of adjudicating effects that apply to polymorph spells, any spell whose effect is based on either alter self or polymorph should be considered to have the polymorph subschool. However, note that the spells' existing rules text takes priority over that of the subschool.

[Kuroimaken]

For the purpose of adjudicating effects that apply to polymorph spells, any spell whose effect is based on either alter self or polymorph should be considered to have the polymorph subschool. However, note that the spells' existing rules text takes priority over that of the subschool.

The existing rules text of those spells actually overturn just about everything in the polymorph subschool rules. Hence why they don't apply.

[Ezvir]

Did you actually read my first post?

[Kuroimaken]

Did you actually read my first post?

Even if I hadn't (which I have), I happened to make sure to read extensively enough on the subject so that I wouldn't be insulting in my reply.

The polymorph subschool rule regarding HP does not apply to the regular polymorph spell since there is actual text, in the spell, that claims you assume the physical stats of the creature and replace them with your own. Ergo, your HP changes as a result.

Nevertheless, since calculating HP every time the Wizard casts Polymorph is a pain in the ass, most DMs consider it temporary HP or apply the "your HP doesn't change" rule anyway. So it's a moot point to discuss that specific rule.

[PhaedrusXY]

For the purpose of adjudicating effects that apply to polymorph spells, any spell whose effect is based on either alter self or polymorph should be considered to have the polymorph subschool. However, note that the spells' existing rules text takes priority over that of the subschool.

Read the section on "spells that came before". It specifically says that the polymorph subschool stuff doesn't apply to Polymorph, Alter Self, Shapechange, and other "spells that came before" at all.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

For the purpose of adjudicating effects that apply to polymorph spells, any spell whose effect is based on either alter self or polymorph should be considered to have the polymorph subschool. However, note that the spells' existing rules text takes priority over that of the subschool.

[troll]

D.) Due to the wording of alter self and how it's referenced in polymorph, you cannot take a form greater than one size larger or smaller than your own. Metamorphosis has no such restrictions.

That's pretty debatable, actually. I think the restrictions might be lifted, per the way Polymorph is worded, and that's the interpretation that has been taken in the two Polymorph threads, also.

, nor can you cause a subject to assume an incorporeal or gaseous form.

The underlined part is a size restriction. It could be argued that that replaces the size restrictions from Alter Self, although technically you could enforce both, I guess.

It's also nonsensical, as there is no size smaller than Fine in D&D...

The 3.5 FAQ p. 77 clears this up. Polymorph is Fine to Colossal just like Shapechange.

Alter self (PH 197), the base spell in the polymorph
chain, says that the new form must be within one size
category of your normal size. Is the same true of other
spells in the chain?

[Ezvir]

The polymorph subschool rule regarding HP does not apply to the regular polymorph spell since there is actual text, in the spell, that claims you assume the physical stats of the creature and replace them with your own. Ergo, your HP changes as a result.

Assuming the physical ability scores of the creature without changing hp is the way polymorph subschool spells work by default. Thus changing physical ability scores without changing hp would, unless contradicted by the existing rules text, be the way polymorph should work. How does changing physical ability scores contradict changing physical ability scores without changing hp? There is after all precedent for changing physical ability scores without changing hp, so changing physical ability scores does not necessarily in itself imply changing hp. The existing rules text for polymorph never mentions anything about changing hp either way.

For the purpose of adjudicating effects that apply to polymorph spells, any spell whose effect is based on either alter self or polymorph should be considered to have the polymorph subschool. However, note that the spells' existing rules text takes priority over that of the subschool.

Read the section on "spells that came before". It specifically says that the polymorph subschool stuff doesn't apply to Polymorph, Alter Self, Shapechange, and other "spells that came before" at all.

The passage you quoted me quoting is from that very section. And as you can see it doesn't apply if the existing rules text states something different, which is not quite the same as "at all".

For the purpose of adjudicating effects that apply to polymorph spells, any spell whose effect is based on either alter self or polymorph should be considered to have the polymorph subschool. However, note that the spells' existing rules text takes priority over that of the subschool.

Polymorph is based on alter self, and thus belongs to the subschool.
Shapechange is based on polymorph, and thus belongs to the subschool.
Alter self is mentioned as an example of how the new rules affect existing spells of the subschool, and is thus obviously intended to belong to the subschool by the designers.

[PhaedrusXY]

Did you consider the implications of the polymorph subschool rules? Alter self, polymorph and shapechage belong to that subschool and the subschool rules apply to them unless overruled in the spell's existing rules text.
Specifically hit points don't change with con according to polymorph subschool rules and since the existing rules text of polymorph doesn't adress hp changing with con in any way that should also apply to polymorph and shapchange, should it not?

Wait... this is what we're arguing about? I think you are right about the subschool rules applying if they don't directly contradict the text, but... hit points don't change with Con when you Polymorph or Shapechange. That's the way those spells worked even before the Polymorph subschool business. The only thing I can think of that might change due to what you're saying is Metamorphosis, but technically it's not based on Polymorph as it doesn't reference it at all.

[Ezvir]

Wait... this is what we're arguing about? I think you are right about the subschool rules applying if they don't directly contradict the text, but... hit points don't change with Con when you Polymorph or Shapechange.

That's what I thought, too, but as of right now the tables in the first post of this thread say hp does change with con, and the polymorph subschool argument seemed to be the clearest argument why that would not be the case, and why the spell would work as you and I think it does and not as the table currently indicates.

[PhaedrusXY]

Ah, ok, I hadn't been following the whole argument. Yeah, I agree that the table is wrong. It was clarified even before the Polymorph subschool was published that your hit points don't change due to Con when using Polymorph and its derivatives. This was in a FAQ or Errata. The "Sage" might have said otherwise in his HouseRules of the Game articles, but they hold no weight when it comes to the actual rules.

[Surreal]

Sigh, and this is why I ask people to help me out with any mistakes. Sometimes I make a rules goof, sometimes I cut'n'paste wrong, whatever. Most of the time I just give up on the concept of polymorph entirely

Anyhow, the hp thing should be fixed now.

[troll]

I think you are right about the subschool rules applying if they don't directly contradict the text, but... hit points don't change with Con when you Polymorph or Shapechange. That's the way those spells worked even before the Polymorph subschool business.

It was clarified even before the Polymorph subschool was published that your hit points don't change due to Con when using Polymorph and its derivatives. This was in a FAQ or Errata. The "Sage" might have said otherwise in his HouseRules of the Game articles, but they hold no weight when it comes to the actual rules.

I'd challenge you to find that in the Errata or the FAQ... I just cruised thru them and found no such thing.

On face value, I can indicate that hps changed before the Polymorph Subschool existed and that they allowed for this with the new Polymorph Subschool spells. Look at the new Polymorph Subschool spells... I believe all of them give you a quantity of temporary hps (Trollshape gives you 30 hps for example). Why do they suddenly feel compelled to give you extra hps if the original Polymorph didn't?

Are you going to argue that Bear's Endurance also doesn't change hps? Unlikely.

In their attempt to rein in Polymorph... they took away Polymorph as the basis for things like Animal Shapes and Wild Shape. One of the 'new' factors was that you kept your original hps (when previously you did not).

They errata'd Baleful Polymorph so you kept your original hps (you got to keep your hps from classes... but since your Con changed your hps would still change).

[Kuroimaken]

I think you are right about the subschool rules applying if they don't directly contradict the text, but... hit points don't change with Con when you Polymorph or Shapechange. That's the way those spells worked even before the Polymorph subschool business.

It was clarified even before the Polymorph subschool was published that your hit points don't change due to Con when using Polymorph and its derivatives. This was in a FAQ or Errata. The "Sage" might have said otherwise in his HouseRules of the Game articles, but they hold no weight when it comes to the actual rules.

They errata'd Baleful Polymorph so you kept your original hps (you got to keep your hps from classes... but since your Con changed your hps would still change).

Baleful Polymorph ALWAYS kept your original HP. This hasn't changed, ever.

[PhaedrusXY]

I'd challenge you to find that in the Errata or the FAQ... I just cruised thru them and found no such thing.

I don't have time to waste on it. I know that was "clarified" at some point, though.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

It's also nonsensical, as there is no size smaller than Fine in D&D...

It's to prevent "i turn into an e coli bacterium" nonsense.  Believe me, people would try it otherwise.

Man, why does Merlin have to ruin things for everyone else.

[Surreal]

Bah, it looks like all the images are corrupted or something. I'll try and fix this tomorrow.