Ravenloft! (No spoilers, please)

[Agita]

So, I'm currently applying to join a PbP Ravenloft campaign, and I'm going to make a good, old cleric. Now, I'm probably one of few gamers who have never played in Ravenloft before (Ever. Not even snippets. Really.), so I'd greatly prefer no spoilers. (I abhor spoilers. I even put it in the title for good measure. That's how important it is. to me) I have, naturally, read the appendix containing stuff for, as well as the first 20 or so pages of the book before I figured that this looked like a pretty cool thing to play, so I put it down just in case.
First off, sources and character creation. Those are important. All of core is automatically allowed, no questions asked. So is Libris Mortis - with the stipulation "Unless I find something exploitable". By my interpretation, that means Nightsticks are probably okay, but just to be on the safe side, I'll refrain from stacking them. Not like I can even afford more than two. All other books are okay, provided I list book and page number. I'd prefer no Dragon, if possible (partly because I only own the Compendium and like two mags), but I guess asking can't hurt. Unearthed Arcana is to be reviewed on a case-by-case basis, as are homebrews. Quick MM for Sorcerers and LA Buyoff are in without saying. I'll have to ask about flaws, but I prefer to assume none so it won't trip me over if they're not allowed.
Stat generation is either standard rolling (4d6 drop lowest six times), or 32 point buy. You can switch from rolls to point buy if and only if the total modifier is +6 or less. I gravitate strongly towards point buy in this case, since getting, say, all fourteens or something similar would thoroughly suck. We start at lvl 7 (or level 6 with buyoff). The DM doesn't want sheets yet, but whatever. I might as well get started sooner rather than later, and if I don't get in, I can always save the character for another occasion.

For now, I've settled more or less on what I want to play - An Aasimar (Bought-off, naturally) Cleric 6, going into Knight of the Raven. I wish to focus on melee and buffing, and since Ravenloft has lots of undead, Turn Undead shouldn't miss out either. I'm thinking I should stay in Cleric one more level before entering KotR, though - for one, it allows me more time to RP my entry into the order, for two, it gets me 4th level spells (Divine Power!) earlier. I've also considered dipping Prestige Paladin for one level, if I can get it past the DM. EDIT: Prereqs would require some juggling, to meet, though. =/
On Aasimar vs. Lesser Aasimar: I don't like the lesser Planetouched races for balance reasons. Martial Weapon Proficiency for no LA is not an equal trade, and +2 to two stats with no minuses, as well as a bunch of other racial abilities is too much for +0 LA. Also, Outsider type seemed like a good way to pick up martial proficiency (KotR doesn't seem to grant it) for going to town with the sunsword later. Of course, if an overwhelming majority tells me to go for lesser, I'll budge.

Now, I've got a basic outline of what I'll play. From there on, I'm hitting the wall. Y'see, this would be my first time playing an optimized cleric (the last one, and my real first, wasn't optimized). Naturally, DMM is a must. With Extra Turning and a nightstick (which would tear a 7.5k chunk out of my resources), as well as Cha 16 (14 base +2 race), I get to 14 turning attempts, which translates to two Persisted spells or two Quickened spells with four attempts left. This seems like awfully little, but maybe I'm just expecting too much, having never seen an actually optimized Cleric in action, or even more than a build stub below lvl 20. The obvious choice for DMM is probably between Persist and Quicken. Persist has obvious merits, naturally, (Divine Power!) but a single Persistified buff would eat 7 turn attempts, which means that two would pretty much mean the end of my turning. Extending them on top of that (with a rod or regular spell slots) is possible, of course. However, DMM Persist suffers from rather strong prejudice on the side of DMs. Whyever that might be? On the other side, Quicken would allow me to buff in-combat, i.e. when it's needed, while still retaining my actions. Here, too, I can only afford two/day, though, which is not going to last me through three encounters. I do retain a nice cushion of 4 turn attempts, on the bright side.

Which brings me to my next issue: Turning. In an undead-heavy campaign, I'm gonna go out on a limb and assume there will be Turn Resistance. Which, of course, sucks for me. One solution to this would be pumping my turning level high, which faces the problem that such items seem insanely expensive compared to my meek 19k gold pieces. A Phylactery of Undead Turning gives +4 on effective turning level for 11k, that thing from LM (name escapes me) gives +3 for 9k. Rod of defiance, also from LM, reduces TR by 4 (nice), and weighs in a 13k gp (not so nice). I'm rather averse to crafting stuff myself (costing XP, taking time etc), and if these items are freely available in Barovia, one has to wonder why nobody has put them to use yet. The other way is Destroy Undead, the ACF from EtCR itself. While it deals okay AoE damage, has a huge save, and drastically reduces the impact of Turn Resistance, the fact that it seems to be, as written, capped by Cleric level (as opposed to, say, turning level) turns me off. That means if I go Cleric 7/KotR 3, my damage will be 7d6, and stay that way. If I PrC out at 5 instead (Into some full-casting class, of course), it'll be a piddling 5d6. I dunno, maybe I'm missing something really cool about it. In any case, I'll ask the DM if we can have the damage/DC determined by effective turning level instead - capped by character level, if necessary.

Next, ability scores. This should've probably come first, but I'm writing this as I go, so stuff is literally in the order it came to mind. Though I could probably work with all 14s or something, I'm hesitant to roll for ability scores. I've had awesome luck the last two times I rolled (49 pb equivalent and 43 pb equivalent), so superstition dictates that I won't be so lucky the next time I roll. Thus, I'll probably go with point buy. Dex is a dump stat, as is Int, but I'll keep Int at 10 so I can train both Concentration and Spellcraft. And maybe stick five points in Knowledge (Religion) for turning. Melee types and buffers can afford to have their Wis lower than others since they won't be needing spells that grant a save, so I thought I'd stick a 15 there and advance it with levels. My current setup is 16/8/14/10/15/14 before levels and racial bonuses, and 16/8/14/10/18/16 after racial bonuses and level increase. Could I make do with a 14 Str and put some more into Wis/Cha? Seems risky for my to-hit, even with Divine Power coming along in 3,000 XP. =/

Lastly, domains and feats. I'm lumping these together because some domains grant feats, and because I may be running out of characters. Dunno what the limit is here. Sun seems like a good choice, if only for the domain power. KotR 3 grants it, but if I already have it, it would grant me a second use, which is cool. Glory is also interesting, but I don't know how the extra turning damage would interact with Destroy Undead if I go that route (not at all, I'd guess). Undeath is, of course, awesome for Extra Turning, but a Good-aligned Cleric won't be able to cast like 80% of its spells, which also makes it kind of an awkward fit flavor-wise. I wonder if I could get the DM to let me put the Undeath domain power on some other domain. Like Glory. Planning provides Extend Spell as prereq for Persist.
Feat-wise, DMM is a must. I'll also need a MM feat to go with it, so I'm guessing either Quicken or Extend -> Persist. For a melee character, Power Attack is a priority as well. And... depending on whether flaws are allowed, that pretty much eats up my feats. Once everything else is taken care of, Disciple of the Sun could be nice for more Greater Turning, and of course, Extra Turning always helps.

..And I completely forgot equipment! >_> On casters, I typically default to writing a +[casting stat] item on the sheet very first thing I do, but if DCs really are irrelevant, I wonder if it's really so much of a top priority. Bonus spells are always gravy, of course. A Wand of Lesser Vigor for out of combat healing and a Flametouched Iron holy symbol for a little extra oomph on turning are two relatively cheap items that come to mind. Magic weapons and armor can be mostly replaced by GMW/Magic Vestment, but a token enhancement bonus to be able to slap on other enchantments should be affordable. The Restful enchantment costs only 500 gp and allows me to indulge in my paranoia without taking penalties for sleeping in heavy armor. An animated shield would be nice, but may be a bit more than what I can afford if I want to pick up other stuff. For weapons, just sticking to a MW one to GMW may be preferable if I plan on finding and using the Sunsword. For a starting weapon, a greatsword would be my default choice for use with PA. Packing a Morningstar as well, in case of DR/Bludgeoning and/or Piercing (Skeletons ahoy!) seems like a worthwhile investment. For misc equipment, a Nightstick is an obvious choice, as is a lesser or normal (11k - ouch!) rod of extend. I guess I'll look through LM and EtCR for other useful stuff against undead. Moonfriend (a ring) seems nice, as it occupies a slot that doesn't see much use at this level.

So, comments? Advice (preferred)? Flame wars? I'm open to everything. Except flame wars. And excessive spoilers. This might become a CO diary if the character gets accepted. Maybe.

UPDATE: I've been accepted into the game, so this will become a CO Diary once it starts. Whee!

[Straw_Man]

  Looks good. Lesser Aasimar doesn't give all martial weapons btw. Only thing I can add is your going with sun domain you may as well take Heal, it's like acid to undead. At that point, you may as well be a Pelorite and go into RSoP. You'll have all the prereqs but you need to be NG, whats the KotR alignments reqs? Cool bits are even more Great Turns, immunity to Magical diseases (big in Ravenloft) and Empowered Heal by level 2. Oh and you know all martial weapons as well.

[Agita]

  Looks good. Lesser Aasimar doesn't give all martial weapons btw.

I'm aware of that. Was I unclear on that somewhere?

Only thing I can add is your going with sun domain you may as well take Heal, it's like acid to undead. At that point, you may as well be a Pelorite and go into RSoP. You'll have all the prereqs but you need to be NG, whats the KotR alignments reqs? Cool bits are even more Great Turns, immunity to Magical diseases (big in Ravenloft) and Empowered Heal by level 2. Oh and you know all martial weapons as well.

I dunno, I don't like Healing. It's +1 CL to a limited subset of spells and the spells don't really add anything to my list I don't already have. RSoP would indeed be cool, but I don't know if that would interfere with entry into KotR. (I think the Raven would be counted as an ideal to worship, and RSoP requires you to worship Pelor.) The requirements might also be difficult to meet with only 2 skill points/level. I already want 5 ranks in K(Religion) and as many ranks in Spellcraft and Concentration as possible. RSoP requires another 5 ranks in Heal, and an extra 4 ranks beyond what I had planned for in K(Religion). Stupid Cleric skill points... KotR AL reqs are any Good.
RSoP also gets Divine Health at level 2 and requires 9 ranks to enter, so to get that, I'd need to delay my entry into KotR by a level, which isn't the end of the world, but inconvenient.

[Agita]

Update and bump, because I'm an impatient bastard. Up to two Flaws are allowed, "but only if they suit your character". Luckily, I'm pretty good at bending flavor to my will. Also, technically any form of free feats suits my character.
Also, looking at Moonfriend and Phylactery of Undead Turning again, their wording seems to indicate that they would indeed sack with Cleric levels for Destroy Undead. Anyone know more about this? Puleaze? 
Finally, I just rolled for hp and got 34 before Con mod, which is 3.5 above average. Woohoo.

EDIT: So, what flaws would be good to take? Shaky seems like a no-brainer on a melee cleric, and fits with his 8 Dex. For the second, I've thought about Murky-Eyed, but I dunno how prevalent concealment is in Ravenloft.

[BowenSilverclaw]

Okay, I promised I'd reply, sorry for the delay

I don't really know anything about Ravenloft, so it will be more general advice than Ravenloft specific...

Okay...

Aasimar or Lesser Aasimar?

Aasimar get's you proficiencies and Outsider type, but costs a level.
With a Lesser Aasimar you can get the proficiencies/at least one decent proficiency if you go with the War Domain or pick up a PrC that grants Martial Weapon Proficiency.
I believe the Prestige Paladin gets you Martial Weapon Proficiency, I'm not familiar enough with the Knight of the Raven, so I wouldn't know about that.
If you end up going with the War domain, take a look at Ordained Champion (Complete Champion), it's pretty damn awesome for melee Clerics.
As for the Outsider type, you gotta ask yourself this: Will you be getting a way to (ab)use Alter Self and Polymorph?

Assuming you can get your desired proficiencies elsewhere and won't be able/allowed to use Polymorph shenanigans, I'd definitely go with the Lesser Aasimar. But that depends on the rest of your build (PrC's).

As for Turning, I wouldn't focus on the Turning/Destroying of Undead with a melee beatstick. I mean, sure, it's possible to turn the likes of Dragotha into dust at level 15 or so without too much trouble, but it takes a lot of investment in magic items to make it effective enough to do that, like you said.
Aside from that, as a beatstick you'll be using almost all of your Turning for DMM, no use to invest thousands of gp to make those 1 or 2 unused Turn attemps useful, you're better of using that cash on gear that helps you in your intended party role.

As for Quicken or Persistent, I've always had a preference for Persistent, seeing as it lasts the entire day. You've said that you'd be able to use either of those feats only twice with DMM. Well, with Persistent you'd have 2 buffs up for every combat of the day, with Quicken you get to save on 2 buff rounds out of a possible 4 combats or so each day, so to have 2 buffs active for each combat, assuming 4 combats, you'd still have to spend 6 standard actions in total, 6 rounds you could have spend to smash peoples faces. Assuming a Melee Cleric and (most importantly) assuming the DM isn't too Dispel Happy I'd go with Persistent.

Also, aside from a Nightstick (assuming they don't stack), look into a Reliquary Holy Symbol (either MIC or Complete Champion, not sure anymore) for a couple of extra Turn attempts


Then, the Domains...

Assuming you don't need any to qualify for PrC's (see Ordained Champion), I'd say Planning and Undeath really are no-brainers, help you save prerequisite feats for DMM(Persistent), that much should be obvious.

Law, Travel or Animal could be useful for their Devotion feats, but using those multiple times a day would cost you Turn attempts, not that great with your limited pool and DMM's heavy cost of Turning...

Feats, aside from the DMM stuff ofcourse, should, like you said already, include Power Attack.
Aside from that you'd need Mounted Combat for Prestige Paladin.
Ordained Champion would let you swap domains for Fighter Bonus Feats, could be nice to get Improved Bull Rush and Shock Trooper, assuming you don't need those Domains for other stuff (like prerequisites or DMM-related bonus feats).

Ability scores 16, 8, 14, 10, 18, 16 look good to me. I wouldn't dump Strength too much for a Melee type, so this looks nice.
If you go with  the Lesser Aasimar and want to boost them a little bit more, and don't mind LA-buyback, Draconic and Feral are both nice (the latter may be considered cheesy though, and would tank your Dex even further, as well as a costly -4 on Int).

Equipment is pretty basic at this level, what you've got listed looks fine to me.



That should cover most of the basics (all from my personal opinion and experience of course ), hope it helps.

~Bowen

[Agita]

Aasimar or Lesser Aasimar?

Aasimar get's you proficiencies and Outsider type, but costs a level.
With a Lesser Aasimar you can get the proficiencies/at least one decent proficiency if you go with the War Domain or pick up a PrC that grants Martial Weapon Proficiency.
I believe the Prestige Paladin gets you Martial Weapon Proficiency, I'm not familiar enough with the Knight of the Raven, so I wouldn't know about that.
If you end up going with the War domain, take a look at Ordained Champion (Complete Champion), it's pretty damn awesome for melee Clerics.
As for the Outsider type, you gotta ask yourself this: Will you be getting a way to (ab)use Alter Self and Polymorph?

Assuming you can get your desired proficiencies elsewhere and won't be able/allowed to use Polymorph shenanigans, I'd definitely go with the Lesser Aasimar. But that depends on the rest of your build (PrC's).

Prestige pally indeed gives proficiencies as the standard Paladin - i.e. pretty much everything aside from exotic weapons. Thing about the War domain is that it gives proficiency with one MW, and only one - meaning if I want to go greatsword until I get my hands on the sunsword (which is essentially a cheaper Sun Blade), I'd have to either retrain eventually or walk around with a useless feat. It's a setback, albeit a minor one. I guess I could always pick bastard sword (two-handed) for my proficiency. Then again, how does the War domain interact with deityless clerics? Does it give them any weapon they want, or nothing at all?
The main reason I'm not going PrC Paladin is actually kinda silly... I don't have the skill points. >_> As a cleric with 10 Int, I only get a total of 18 skill points at level 6 (the level before I could enter Prestige Paladin due to BaB reqs) PrC Paladin demands two ranks in an in-class skill, and a total of 6 ranks in cross-class skills. That adds up to a total of 14 points spent just on qualifying for the PrC. Seeing as I want 5 points in K (Religion) for the +2 to turning checks - used as backup if any remain after my DMM routine - and, naturally, as much as possible in Concentration and Spellcraft, the whole thing ends up just a little bit skill point-starved.

As for Turning, I wouldn't focus on the Turning/Destroying of Undead with a melee beatstick. I mean, sure, it's possible to turn the likes of Dragotha into dust at level 15 or so without too much trouble, but it takes a lot of investment in magic items to make it effective enough to do that, like you said.
Aside from that, as a beatstick you'll be using almost all of your Turning for DMM, no use to invest thousands of gp to make those 1 or 2 unused Turn attemps useful, you're better of using that cash on gear that helps you in your intended party role.

I don't think there's an easy way for me to get Alter Self/Polymorph, and I wouldn't really want to. I'm going for optimized, not "make DM weep". Outsider type in this case is mostly good for an easy way to pick up proficiencies and not be subject to a stray Dominate Person or something like that. Since we're using LA Buyoff, the difference between Lesser and full Aasimar is lessened, so trading 3,000 XP for the proficiencies and immunity to Charm/Dominate Person was a good way to appease my cheap conscience for using Aasimar. >_>

As for Quicken or Persistent, I've always had a preference for Persistent, seeing as it lasts the entire day. You've said that you'd be able to use either of those feats only twice with DMM. Well, with Persistent you'd have 2 buffs up for every combat of the day, with Quicken you get to save on 2 buff rounds out of a possible 4 combats or so each day, so to have 2 buffs active for each combat, assuming 4 combats, you'd still have to spend 6 standard actions in total, 6 rounds you could have spend to smash peoples faces. Assuming a Melee Cleric and (most importantly) assuming the DM isn't too Dispel Happy I'd go with Persistent.

Also, aside from a Nightstick (assuming they don't stack), look into a Reliquary Holy Symbol (either MIC or Complete Champion, not sure anymore) for a couple of extra Turn attempts

That was my thinking too. Given an equal choice, I'd probably go with Persist. However, DMs are like shy animals. If you want to get something past them, you need to approach with care and not look too threatening, or else they'll flee, or even worse, lash out. I've heard that DMM Persist has a tendency to be very intimidating.
I didn't find any reliquary holy symbols in MIC or CC with a quick search.

Then, the Domains...

Assuming you don't need any to qualify for PrC's (see Ordained Champion), I'd say Planning and Undeath really are no-brainers, help you save prerequisite feats for DMM(Persistent), that much should be obvious.

Law, Travel or Animal could be useful for their Devotion feats, but using those multiple times a day would cost you Turn attempts, not that great with your limited pool and DMM's heavy cost of Turning...

Feats, aside from the DMM stuff ofcourse, should, like you said already, include Power Attack.
Aside from that you'd need Mounted Combat for Prestige Paladin.
Ordained Champion would let you swap domains for Fighter Bonus Feats, could be nice to get Improved Bull Rush and Shock Trooper, assuming you don't need those Domains for other stuff (like prerequisites or DMM-related bonus feats).

Yeah, Plannig and Undeath are the default choice for Persist Clerics, but given that you need to be Good to get into KotR (and I made him LG for kicks on top of that), Undeath seems pretty awkward as a domain choice. I'll have to ask the DM what he thinks of DMM Persist. If it's in, Sun and Planning seem like a good choice to me, and would open a feat slot to get another Extra Turning - i.e., four turn attempts for backup. The idea of using a Greater Turning on Strahd's ass just seems too funny to pass up.
For feats, I've currently got this setup:

Planning: Extend
Lvl 1: Persist
Flaw: DMM
Flaw: Extra Turning
Lvl 3: Power attack
Lvl 6: Extra Turning

Assuming a nightstick and no cha item, this setup would leave me with DMM Persist, PA, and 18 turn attempts/day total, allowing me to Persist 2 buffs and have 4 turnings left for miscellaneous Undead floor-mopping. Sound good?

Ability scores 16, 8, 14, 10, 18, 16 look good to me. I wouldn't dump Strength too much for a Melee type, so this looks nice.
If you go with  the Lesser Aasimar and want to boost them a little bit more, and don't mind LA-buyback, Draconic and Feral are both nice (the latter may be considered cheesy though, and would tank your Dex even further, as well as a costly -4 on Int).

Yes, Feral is probably going to be considered a little cheesy, and would leave me with even fewer skill points that I already have, which is a no-no. Draconic might be kinda cool.

Equipment is pretty basic at this level, what you've got listed looks fine to me.

After some calculations, I've come up with the following list:
+1 Restful Full Plate - 3,150 gp (allows me to indulge in my paranoia without penalties)
Flametouched Iron Holy Symbol (Cheapest way I know of to boost turning, could be replaced with the reliquary thing)
Heward's Handy Haversack - 2,000 gp (Standard issue)
MWK Greatsword - 350 gp (To be swapped for the Sunsword as early as feasible. Until then, Extended GMW should do the job)
Metamagic Rod of Extend, Lesser - 3,000 gp (48 hour buffs and 14-hour GMWs!)
Morningstar - 8 gp (vs. pesky DR)
Nightstick - 7,500 gp (So... yeah)
Wand of Vigor, Lesser - 750 gp (Should probably be swapped for a persisted MLV)
Leaves 1,592 gp for other random spendings, or 2,342 without the Wand.

Thanks for the advice.

EDIT: Took the opportunity while the DM was online to ask about optimization and how much is too much. I was careful to word the whole thing diplomatically, let's see what he says.
EDIT 2: DMM Persist is okay, but Rod of Extend on top of that was judged to be overdoing it. One but not both, basically. So naturally, I went with Persist. Flametouched Iron is out because the DM doesn't have Eberron. My Equipment now looks like this:

+1 Restful Full Plate - 3,150 gp
Silver Reliquary Holy Symbol (Raven)
Heward's Handy Haversack - 2,000 gp
MWK Greatsword - 350 gp (To be swapped for the Sunsword as early as feasible.)
Morningstar - 8 gp
Nightstick - 7,500 gp
Wand of Restoration, Lesser - 1,500 gp (Many Undead have abilities that deal ability damage, so one of these seemed like a good buy. Naturally, off the Paladin list at spell level 1/CL 2)
Healing Belt - 750 gp (Cheap healing. The +2 on Heal checks also allows me to make the various DC 15 checks without needing ranks or a Periapt.)
Spell Component Pouch (Obviously.)

Leaves 2,837 gp. 20 Turn attempts (3 base+3 Charisma+8 Extra Turning+4 Nightstick+2 Reliquary Holy Symbol). At this rate, I might abandon the Nightstick to free up 7.5k resources, and maybe buy one later instead. Also, 20 Turn attempts might cause people to call cheese.

The DM will let me take the Lightbringers sub, but only if my character has been in the Lightbringers from rather early on. Since I foolishly had my character have been adventuring for 15 years in the background, I probably won't get away below 1,000 gp. Is that worth it? :-\

EDIT: Found the Reliquary Holy Symbol. It's in the MIC, page 120.

[Lycanthromancer]

Why not consider a cloistered cleric? You get d6 for hit points, the Knowledge domain, 6 skill points per level, and lose out on some armor and weapon proficiencies (which can be gotten back easily with PrC paladin), as well as BAB (which won't matter squat if you're persisting divine power).

I'd also consider having a ranged combatant rather than melee, as undead are REALLY nasty if you're not immune to their abilities. Especially with a cloistered cleric.

If you want to go melee then go for a race immune to undead trickery, such as necropolitan or (partially) warforged. You can knock the XP penalty for necropolitan down pretty hard if you underwent the ritual at level 3 (which is a total of 2500 XP lost ...-1500 XP for losing a level, along with an additional -1000 XP ; less than buying off a point of LA). You can be a Good-Aligned necropolitan if you swing it right, and I'm sure you can. This turns your Con into a dump-stat, and changes your cloistered cleric d6s into d12s. There are several feats that grant you +Int or +Cha to HP instead of Con, so see if you can swing one of those, too. Maybe see if your DM will allow you to be a positive-energy necropolitan (similar to a deathless or a baelnorn). Then spam mass heals (or Chained regular heals) to heal your allies and harm the hell out of the undead hordes that are sure to be plaguing you. Persisting mass vigor wouldn't be amiss either.

You might also want to consider getting a sanctified tattoo of your holy symbol. You don't want to lose your HS in Ravenloft, since you're not likely to get another one.

[Lycanthromancer]

You might want to see about having elf (ie, one of the many, many, many, many, many subraces) as your base race for being a necropolitan, if you decide to go that route. Make sure it gets a penalty to Con, though. Maybe a gray elf? Or a sun elf? Gold elf? Something elf?

[edit] Also, you could swing Undead as a domain if you ARE undead.

[Agita]

Those are some great suggestions, thanks.
Now I wish I had posted this thread before applying and being accepted as an Aasimar Cleric. Would've probably been a smart move.
One problem I can see with CC's BAB is qualification issues. CC can't qualify for either PrC Paladin or KotR until level 8 (meaning entry at 9). It's a minor issue, I guess, but until then I'd have +3 BAB (well, until Divine Power) and no martial weapons, which might be troublesome.

As for persitable spells, I'd like to go for mostly party buffs (so I don't outshine the others... too much) and some self-buffs (*coughdivinepowercoughrighteousmight*). What would be some good ones to persist? For now, I figured Prayer and Mass Lesser Vigor would be good. Starting next level, of course, I'm gonna start persisting Divine Power. Any other ideas for these? I did check JaronK's thread.
Also, my AC right now isn't worth shit (wielding a greatsword, with a negative Dex mod). 6/7 is about the level range where AC starts stopping (wait, what?) to matter, but Undead have shit for BAB, so I might have a chance there. Also, melee combatant with bad AC versus undead kind of screams "dead Cleric".

[Lycanthromancer]

greater/magic vestment, doesn't reduce your base speed, has a weight of 1 lb, can be donned or removed with a standard action, and doesn't actually count as armor. Since it doesn't count as armor, it will stack with the soon-to-be-acquired monk's belt.

It does have ASF and ACP, however (not that you'll suffer on anything but skills).

And I'd suggest Persistifying magic circle against evil. It grants you bonuses against evil creatures, hedges out non-Good summoned creatures, and prevents charm and compulsion effects for as long as it's in...um...effect. What about air walk? Freedom of movement?

As for PrCs, if you want to go with the PrC paladin, just find another PrC (or a racial paragon class) to follow prior to hitting paladin, or just go with cleric until you qualify. Also, pump up those Knowledge skills! Especially Arcana and Religion! Gotta be able to identify those nasty spellcasters and undead, after all.

[Agita]

I'm hesitant to do that. Wearing out my welcome and all that jazz. How come I have some semblance of ethics when it comes to optimization, but not in real life? >_>

A psychoactive skin of proteus (from CPsi) is relatively cheap, has the statistics of plate mail, can be used with greater/magic vestment, doesn't reduce your base speed, has a weight of 1 lb, can be donned or removed with a standard action, and doesn't actually count as armor. Since it doesn't count as armor, it will stack with the soon-to-be-acquired monk's belt.

It does have ASF and ACP, however (not that you'll suffer on anything but skills).

I think you're referring to Skin of Ectoplasmic Armor, which really does all that. Skin of Proteus affects the wearer as per Metamorphosis, which is also kinda nice but way out of my price range. It was reprinted in MIC, where it costs 6,000 instead of 3,000 gp now, so not so cheap anymore. I'll look into it though.

And I'd suggest Persistifying magic circle against evil. It grants you bonuses against evil creatures, hedges out non-Good summoned creatures, and prevents charm and compulsion effects for as long as it's in...um...effect. What about air walk? Freedom of movement?

The Magic Circle line of spells is touch range, as is Air Walk. Freedom of Movement is the only one I could persist without checking with the DM first (and I'm going to guess he'll say no, as would I), and only on myself. Plus, it's level 4, so out until I kill some stuff to level up.

As for PrCs, if you want to go with the PrC paladin, just find another PrC (or a racial paragon class) to follow prior to hitting paladin, or just go with cleric until you qualify. Also, pump up those Knowledge skills! Especially Arcana and Religion! Gotta be able to identify those nasty spellcasters and undead, after all.

Thing is, PrC Pally was more of a tangential thought for PrC'ing out of Cleric ASAP while still getting 4th level spells at ECL 7 before going into Knight of the Raven (And Martial Proficiency, but that alone seems like a weak reason to take a PrC for). With normal cleric, I'm strapped for skill points. With CC, I'm not, but only being able to qualify after lvl 8 for either kinda defeats the main purpose I was considering PP for in the first place. In either case, I'd be spending a feat which I could be spending on more Extra Turning on Mounted Combat, which I'm not really planning on ever using.

[Lycanthromancer]

Gah. Yes, I meant ectoplasmic armor. I've been talking about psywar builds way too  much lately.

[Agita]

I've asked about magic item availability, but haven't gotten a response so far. If I'm unlikely to get my hands on a nice Monk's Belt, I'm thinking about ditching Ectoplasmic Armor and getting a Ring of Counterspelling instead. You know, in case the DM goes Dispel-happy on my group buffs. I also asked if the group would be willing to co-found the Wand of Lesser Restoration. To save money and stuff.

For now, here's my preliminary list of spells prepared.

0:
1xCreate Water (For drink)
3xDetect Magic (Generally useful. There's a sorcerer in the party with this as a spell known, should I ditch it?)
1xPurify Food and Drink (To be honest, I ran out of ideas)

1:
1xConviction
1xDivine Favor (Duration too short to be worthwhile without persisting?)
2xShield of Faith (Let's face it, my AC sucks ass)

2:
1xAid
2xClose wounds (Fast Healing won't help if they drop straight to -10)
1x Extended Conviction (Would something else be better here?)

3:
1xPrayer (Persisted on the party before start of adventure)
1xRemove Curse (The intro said something about Ireena being cursed by witches, so I figured I might as well prepare this. Admiral Ackbar alert?)
1xVigor, Mass Lesser (Persisted on the party before start of adventure)

Domain Spells:
1st: Endure Elements (I hate having to take this. Another character in the party can drop this at will, but my other domain spell, Deathwatch, is [Evil], which is stupid in and of itself.)
2nd: Heat Metal (I didn't want to spend money on Augury. Should this be Augury instead?)
3rd: Clairaudience/Clairvoyance (Searing Light? My ranged attacks suck tho)

Also, any comments on flaws? I have Murky-Eyed and Shaky, but I dunno how often concealment will come up in Ravenloft. Natural darkness shouldn't be a problem due to darkvision, but I'm worried about magical darkness.

EDIT: Also, I know the makeup of the party now. It's gonna be myself, a Rogue, a DFA/Sorcerer heading into a modified version of Eldritch Theurge, and a *shudder* straight Fighter. Well, at least I will have someone to outclass on a consistent basis. >_> I wonder if I should try and convince him to at least go Dungeoncrasher...

[Anklebite]

EDIT: Also, I know the makeup of the party now. It's gonna be myself, a Rouge,

sorry, I just thought that was funny 

(yes, he DID spell rogue correctly. spelling change and emphasis mine)

[RobbyPants]

Also, any comments on flaws? I have Murky-Eyed and Shaky, but I dunno how often concealment will come up in Ravenloft. Natural darkness shouldn't be a problem due to darkvision, but I'm worried about magical darkness.

I haven't played Ravenloft, so I can't say for sure how much of an issue this will be.

Do note that incoporeal creatures have a 50% miss chance against weapons that aren't Ghost Touch.  It explicitly lists this as total concealment which will trigger Murky Eyed.  So, effectively, if you don't have a Ghost Touch weapon, you'll miss incoporeal creatures 75% of the time after hitting their AC.

I'm going to go out on a limb here and guess that you'll run into these types of creatures more in Ravenloft than in a typical game. 

[pfooti]

Let me preface this with: I haven't read the thread in its entirety. The OP is really long. If you're going to make long posts like that, I suggest using headers and bolding. Seriously. Make claims in bold and then back them up with commentary. I like the commentary, though, it gives insight into how you're thinking.

A suggestion:

Knight of the Raven grants the Sun domain, which is a great domain. The sun domain is also required to get into the Radiant Servant of Pelor, which is yet another kickass PrC. Among other things, RSoP gives all martial weapon proficiencies.

Personally, what I'd do is: Cleric (Healing, OPEN) 6 / KotR 3 / RSoP 2. Use the spontaneous domain ACF from PHB2. That means you spontaneously convert spells into spells from the Healing domain instead of into Cure Whatever Wounds spells. This is a *very* minor change for the most part, however it allows you to spontaneously cast Heal. Also, at CL 11 when you're at RSoP 2, all the spells you cast from the healing domain are empowered. Normally, this is only your domain spell (yawn). But combined with the spontaneous domain ACF, it ends up being *all* the healing spells you cast spontaneously. Empowering all those spells is a big deal. It allows you to heal pretty efficiently when necessary in combat, without having to blow very high-level spells on heals.

After CL 11, you can either keep going in KotR or RSoP. A word of warning, though - RSoP 6 is a trap. Maximized heals are actually worse than empowered heals, and you can't choose to just keep Maximized. So Cleric 6 / KotR 3 / RSoP 2 / KotR 7 / RSoP 2 is a good way to go. RSoP 5 gives you the Glory domain, which is a REALLY nice domain, so you might want to pick it up earlier. KotR gives you lots of ways to deal with negative levels, and in an undead-heavy domain, that's a big deal; you can't wait until combat ends to cast restoration (at an expense that adds up fast), when there's guys level-draining like crazy. Plus, the full BAB of KotR means you don't have to cast divine power before wading into combat (it's still good just for the str bonus, but it's not a prerequisite, which can be annoying).

Also, check out the Complete Champion book for some good spells. There's a number of cleric spells that you cast as swift action to improve your turning, which can completely trivialize big bossfights if you get them pulled off. That, and the surge of fortune spell, which you can discharge to roll a natural 20 on your turning check.

[Agita]

@ Incorporeal creatures: Ooh, hadn't thought of that. =/ I guess I could use turning on ghosts, but...
Anyone got ideas for other flaws?

Let me preface this with: I haven't read the thread in its entirety. The OP is really long. If you're going to make long posts like that, I suggest using headers and bolding. Seriously. Make claims in bold and then back them up with commentary. I like the commentary, though, it gives insight into how you're thinking.

I'll give that some though. For now, though, I'm pretty much wasted, as I'm recovering from a serious cold and had to get up at 7:45 today on top of that.

A suggestion:

Knight of the Raven grants the Sun domain, which is a great domain. The sun domain is also required to get into the Radiant Servant of Pelor, which is yet another kickass PrC. Among other things, RSoP gives all martial weapon proficiencies.

Personally, what I'd do is: Cleric (Healing, OPEN) 6 / KotR 3 / RSoP 2. Use the spontaneous domain ACF from PHB2. That means you spontaneously convert spells into spells from the Healing domain instead of into Cure Whatever Wounds spells. This is a *very* minor change for the most part, however it allows you to spontaneously cast Heal. Also, at CL 11 when you're at RSoP 2, all the spells you cast from the healing domain are empowered. Normally, this is only your domain spell (yawn). But combined with the spontaneous domain ACF, it ends up being *all* the healing spells you cast spontaneously. Empowering all those spells is a big deal. It allows you to heal pretty efficiently when necessary in combat, without having to blow very high-level spells on heals.

After CL 11, you can either keep going in KotR or RSoP. A word of warning, though - RSoP 6 is a trap. Maximized heals are actually worse than empowered heals, and you can't choose to just keep Maximized. So Cleric 6 / KotR 3 / RSoP 2 / KotR 7 / RSoP 2 is a good way to go. RSoP 5 gives you the Glory domain, which is a REALLY nice domain, so you might want to pick it up earlier. KotR gives you lots of ways to deal with negative levels, and in an undead-heavy domain, that's a big deal; you can't wait until combat ends to cast restoration (at an expense that adds up fast), when there's guys level-draining like crazy. Plus, the full BAB of KotR means you don't have to cast divine power before wading into combat (it's still good just for the str bonus, but it's not a prerequisite, which can be annoying).

I dunno about spontaneous domain: Healing. Ravenloft is normally in the level range of 6-10 from what I see on the cover of the book. If we start at 7th, we might end at 11th, but is that worth it for a single level we might not even play? For the same reason, progression after 11th is moot. Also, remember that KotR loses one CL up front, so I wouldn't even get 6th level spells until 12th. The KotR into Radiant Servant (probably reflavored to fit the Raven) idea has some merit though.

Also, check out the Complete Champion book for some good spells. There's a number of cleric spells that you cast as swift action to improve your turning, which can completely trivialize big bossfights if you get them pulled off. That, and the surge of fortune spell, which you can discharge to roll a natural 20 on your turning check.

I'll look into those, thanks.

The DM said that barovia is a small town and powerful magic items likely won't be freely available, most of our loot will come from the castle. He noted that he could try and sneak in a Monk's Belt, so Ectoplasmic Armor is still within the realm of possibility. Also, only one party member has enough money left to co-found the wand of lesser restoration. Those selfish bastards better find a way to heal themselves. >_>

[pfooti]

Yeah, if you're only going from level 6-10, just plain KotR is fine. For some reason I had thought it was longer. RSoP is still a good class, though, and you could do worse than Cleric 6 / RSoP 4 as  the end point to your build. Being able to do greater turning a crapton times per day from RSoP is dead sexy.

Another item suggestion: look at the Rod of Bodily Restoration, Orb of Mental Renewal, and Horn of Plenty from the MIC. They're all extraordinarily useful items to buy with party funds. The rod and orb will restore up to 12 points of physical and mental ability damage per day (respectively), with unlimited uses. The horn of plenty provides a Heroes Feast to the entire party 1/day, which makes you immune to fear and poison. It requires the party to throw a lot of gold into the common-good pot (rod and orb are 3,100 each, and the horn is 12,000), but splitting 18,200 four ways only about 35% of a 6th-level PC's wealth. Even better, it gets relatively cheaper if there are more people in the party since you're splitting it further.

[Agita]

As noted, the rest of my party are selfish bastards.  I'm not buying anything for the common good before securing their financial cooperation first.

Any thoughts on Ectoplasmic Armor vs. Counterspelling Ring? Especially now that I lack funding from my party? Or maybe the rod/orb.

[pfooti]

Ectoplasmic armor is pretty good, although I tend toward the "lots of little purchases" route when equipping at mid-low levels. Stuff like the gloves of the starry sky (3/day spontaneously convert a 1st-level spell into a magic missile *at your caster level*) is sexy. Empowered spellshards of a first-level spell. Reliquary Holy Symbols. Anklet of translocation is a must - 2/day get out of a grapple for free.

You can wear full plate just as easily, without mucking around with ectoplasmic armor. And full plate can hold an armor crystal (I like the lesser arrow deflection crystal, +5 to your ranged (including ranged touch) AC). Put the one that makes incorporeal touch attacks get a -5 to hit you on your shield and you've got a respectable AC vs ranged touch and incorp touch attacks (key vs undead). Tunic of steady spellcasting means you'll never fail a concentration check (+5 to concentration checks for a mere 2500gp)

Ephod of authority is a cheap +1 to your effective turning level. So on and so forth. Get a copy of the Magic item compendium and take it with you and read it in your spare time with postit notes. Don't neglect the "sets" in the back of the book, that's where the Ephod and Gloves come from. Once you've done that, think about upgrades - tossing death ward (+1 equiv) on to both your armor and shield makes you ignore 2 level drains a day. Using the p234 rules lets you stack +2 wisdom onto your reliquary holy symbol.

All that's way too much gold for what you have, but it's a general guideline. You can get a lot more bang for your buck (so to speak) by getting a nice collection of 1k-3k value items.

If your party mates are not contributing to the general fund, don't heal them. It's that simple - they need you to waste your own personal resources (spells / day, gold for wands) on keeping them alive. They should fund party equipment in return. Spending all your 2nd-level spells on lesser restoration every day is a real PITA. Having a wand handy is a good start, but the orb and rod are much more efficient in the long term. Most adventuring parties have a roughly 25% tithe that goes to the common good for things like healing wands / scrolls / items / life insurance. I always buy wands for my healers, and expect other people to do the same for me when I'm playing the healer.