Author Topic: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)  (Read 78963 times)

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SorO_Lost

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #140 on: February 03, 2009, 05:44:39 PM »
Your entire post is a straw man.
Mine remain on the same point I started. Yours, instead of explaining you meant the wizard would use his spells to cover the power 6 items you choose to branch off into several other things like crystals need to be changed, or you can break WBL lolpwt and so on.

Likewise when the discussion ends you have to bring it up and claim I did what you were doing then end with yet another put down towards every on the thread not saying your right. I wish you acted like this in real life.

I don't see any such limitation, and from the way Portfolio Sense mentions it, it sounds like it is trying to explicitly say he can look into the past or future when the two are combined.
It's one hell of a word twist. It flat out says they don't receive any sensory input about a future event outside of when and where it happens. Likewise your stretching the last line that says they can use remote sensing on an event they notice (not sense btw, notice) to cover that future part explicitly while ignoring the entry is also talking about sensing events that happen to occur in real time as well. And ignoring remote sense saying it only works on events as they occur as well.

Add it to the dirty tricks if you think it really works. I sure the heck don't think it does.

Then in the fixes to dirty tricks mention Boccob has 50 int and knows exactly when you were originally going to cast X spell at Y location on Z hour before you contacted him. Yes there is an advantage in that, but your not going to get the exact spell outside of a more intelligent being picking which ones he likes.
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[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
6: Skill based. Commoner, Expert, Samurai.
5: Mundane warrior. Barbarian, Fighter, Monk.
4: Partial casters. Adapt, Hexblade, Paladin, Ranger, Spelltheif.
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2: Full casters. Favored Soul, Psion, Sorcerer, Wu Jen.
1: Elitists. Artificer, Cleric, Druid, Wizard.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #141 on: February 03, 2009, 07:17:42 PM »
It's one hell of a word twist. It flat out says they don't receive any sensory input about a future event outside of when and where it happens.
Which applies to Portfolio Sense. THEN it says they can use their Remote Viewing on that event, which definitely does give them sensory input.
Quote
Once a deity notices an event, it can use its remote sensing power to perceive the event.
Why would it state it like that, if they weren't meaning that they can look into the future using this combination? What are they telling them, that they can wait around for a week, and THEN use Remote Viewing to see what happens at that event? Why even mention that at all? It is wholly unecessary. Of course they can do that. That's the basic function of Remote Viewing.

No, I think it's pretty obvious that Portfolio Sense lets them know an event will happen, and then they can immediately "scry" on it using Remote Viewing if they want to know more about it. I don't think it's a stretch at all. It sounds like that's exactly how it's supposed to work. We're talking about freakin' deities here, after all. It's not out of the realm of belief that they can look into the future, with all the fluff about them being all-knowing and all that crap.


And besides, this is all a diversion, as it really has nothing to do with the effectiveness of Contact Other Plane. Contact Other Plane definitely can do what TheMadLinguist described. It doesn't go into the details of how, nor does it have to. As he showed, the line you quoted about something "not being able to be answered in this way" refers to whether the answer can be given in one word or not. You took it out of context and tried to say it meant something else, but in context it is obvious what it refers to.
« Last Edit: February 03, 2009, 07:20:14 PM by PhaedrusXY »
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #142 on: February 03, 2009, 07:48:44 PM »
Question: Did contact outer plane work before Deities and Demigods was published?

Answer: Obviously yes.  Otherwise it would be stupid to have a spell that did exactly nothing.

Question: Does the spell only contact deities statted in Deities and Demigods?

Answer: Obviously not.  It says nothing of the sort.

Question: Does deities and demigods stat up all divine entities?

Answer: Obviously not. 

Therefore, publishing stats for a subset of divine entities cannot inhibit the spell's function.  Just like publishing stats for, say, Grezno, the half dragon celestial badger, cannot make summon monster impossible "because you can't summon monsters with templates other than celestial or fiendish, and now there's a celestial badger with the half-dragon template, which isn't celestial or fiendish, so you can't summon anything!".



By your logic, augury can't work either.  Or the spell divination.  Or any other method of learning the future.

By Rules As Written, you have an 88% chance of getting the correct answer.  You CANNOT argue that, any more than you can argue that humans get +9 constitution.  The percentage chance is EXACTLY what's written. 

If you like, you can argue that the spell automatically adds knowledge to the entity's already vast store, and it's so irritating the deity only gives a one-word answer.  But the fact that the extraplanar entity KNOWS the answer is inarguable. 

As for a Rules As Intended argument, your interpretation makes three core spells completely nonfunctional.  Given that they exist, this CANNOT be Rules As Intended.


Again, I'm fine with house rules, as long as you don't continue this ruse.
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Midnight_v

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #143 on: February 03, 2009, 08:05:27 PM »
Quote
Then in the fixes to dirty tricks mention Boccob has 50 int and knows exactly when you were originally going to cast X spell at Y location on Z hour before you contacted him. Yes there is an advantage in that, but your not going to get the exact spell outside of a more intelligent being picking which ones he likes.
:twitch
It's not a "dirty trick" just because you don't like it. Gods know the future. If you can ask them questions and they know the future... then clearly they can answer your questions. What do they call that?> ahh yeah prophets.
In this instances its  SorO_Lost trying to fit the game to what he wants, not the optimizers.
Whats funny about all this and what it seems people miss is that...
Well the fact that we have to debate "Do the GODS know the answer to the wizards questions" is kinda indicative of the sheer level of power discrepancy between playing a Mook *ahem* Monk, vs a wizard.
Its just not the same power scale at all... and it ridiculous that people just ignore that.
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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #144 on: February 04, 2009, 04:46:51 AM »
Just so everyone knows exactly what the spell states: http://www.d20srd.org/srd/spells/contactOtherPlane.htm

Honestly, I can see how you can get the answer you seek by contacting a greater diety but you have a 50%(This will vary but I'm using Int/Cha 22 for example which is very plausible at level 10) chance of having your Intelligence or Charisma reduced to 8 for 5 weeks.  On top of that, you may not even get the answers you seek.  Why would any wizard cast this spell daily or even twice daily knowing what the risks are?
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Arcane-surge

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #145 on: February 04, 2009, 04:49:10 AM »
Well, it's an ability check. According to the PHB, you can take 10 on ability checks, so if you've got an Int/Cha of 22, your chances of failing are exactly zero, it seems.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #146 on: February 04, 2009, 05:50:13 AM »
Well, it's an ability check. According to the PHB, you can take 10 on ability checks, so if you've got an Int/Cha of 22, your chances of failing are exactly zero, it seems.

Exactly.  And what wizard doesn't have that by level 10?
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #147 on: February 04, 2009, 09:23:33 AM »
Precisely. I ended up house ruling it to no take 10, but by RAW it works.
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Rebel7284

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #148 on: February 04, 2009, 09:45:22 AM »
The problem with knowing the future is that it discounts free will.
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Anklebite

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #149 on: February 04, 2009, 10:05:17 AM »
even then, saying "knowing what you now know makes what you know irrelevant" is a house rule, as it invalidates all divinations.

by RAW, contact other plane, and other divinations, tell you the truth about what is going to happen.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #150 on: February 04, 2009, 11:38:40 AM »
The problem with knowing the future is that it discounts free will.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Rebel7284

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #151 on: February 04, 2009, 12:30:28 PM »
The problem with knowing the future is that it discounts free will.

How reliably do you know that x will do y though?  If it's a single roll like the next Dispel check, it's easy to emulate by just rolling it in advance.  Anything more complicated can lead to paradoxes.  The future is at best a diverging tree of possibilities.  Thus, unless your DM IS willing to take away free will by setting all rolls in stone and controlling the characters, such divine answers will always be guesses and NOT seeing into the future.

[edit]Predetermination vs. free will is a really really old debate.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #152 on: February 04, 2009, 01:32:46 PM »
[edit]Predetermination vs. free will is a really really old debate.
And is way too advanced for what we're talking about here. Of course, the DM doesn't actually know what's going to be the outcome of certain things, regardless of whether the deities in the game are supposed to or not. He can know what actions creatures might take, though, and give you info on that. He does control the NPCs and their actions, but he does not control the dice (the outcomes).

In a PC vs PC type of situation, it would be alot more difficult to use this spell, as the DM doesn't even know what the actions of each party are going to be, and indeed each party is allowed to change their actions "on the fly".
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Original Sin

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #153 on: February 04, 2009, 01:58:48 PM »
Hmm.  Having read through this thread, one point becomes blatantly obvious...D&D is grossly biased in favor of casters.
This of course is based on how well one can optimize their caster, but for the most part the mage will, after level 5 or so, come out the victor in a one on one scenario.  That being so, why would anyone choose to play, say, a fighter or the apallingly despised monk?  Frankly, I've always preferred the rogue, but still.
We have a couple of guys I work with trying this same scenario, wizard vs fighter, 5th level.  And get this, the fighter advocate wants no magic items.  Hmm. :rollseyes
Now, as for myself, if I were to build some class that I intended to be a "mage-slayer" I'd try my hand at a ranged specialist.  I don't foresee any wizard grabbing a greatsword and charging into the thick of battle shouting at the top of his lungs.  (Although, if it did happen, I'd be even MORE worried!)  Obviously I need to be able to hit from a distance.  A master thrower build has become my current choice of ranged specialist, but I'm not that well versed in all the PC's.
Anyway, my point being that the game is essentially broken after level 5 or so in favor of casters and only gets worse as levels progress.  Why bother with the other classes then?  How would you go about fixing it?
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Arcane-surge

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #154 on: February 04, 2009, 02:04:07 PM »
The problem with ranged is that a reasonably buffed caster still has a high AC, as well as things like miss chance or mirror image. It faces the same issues as melee, as well as things that can totally negate ranged attacks, like Wind Wall.
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Midnight_v

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #155 on: February 04, 2009, 02:33:24 PM »
Hmm.  Having read through this thread, one point becomes blatantly obvious...D&D is grossly biased in favor of casters.
This of course is based on how well one can optimize their caster, but for the most part the mage will, after level 5 or so, come out the victor in a one on one scenario.  That being so, why would anyone choose to play, say, a fighter or the apallingly despised monk?  Frankly, I've always preferred the rogue, but still.
We have a couple of guys I work with trying this same scenario, wizard vs fighter, 5th level.  And get this, the fighter advocate wants no magic items.  Hmm. :rollseyes
Now, as for myself, if I were to build some class that I intended to be a "mage-slayer" I'd try my hand at a ranged specialist.  I don't foresee any wizard grabbing a greatsword and charging into the thick of battle shouting at the top of his lungs.  (Although, if it did happen, I'd be even MORE worried!)  Obviously I need to be able to hit from a distance.  A master thrower build has become my current choice of ranged specialist, but I'm not that well versed in all the PC's.
Anyway, my point being that the game is essentially broken after level 5 or so in favor of casters and only gets worse as levels progress.  Why bother with the other classes then?  How would you go about fixing it?
1. Congratulations on quickly picking up on the fundementals of D&D. Acknowledging there's a problem is the first step towards recovery :clap

And in no particular order:

* If playing 3.5 allow all sources... it actually helps the NON-casters more because casters are already gone... it give more options to the norms. There are people who don't allow the T.O.B because they fear it'll be broken but they've never played a druid apparently. Use the Tob Classes instead of the base classes some, it shores up the game a little for melees without being a Co God.

*Don't do what paizo did. (go on ask what they did "I dare you")

*We play the other classes to be challenged and for the love of the game, optimize enough and there are workable no caster builds...

*Try the "Tome" series by frank trollman and Keith. (excellent rewrites available for free online)

*Check the houserules and creations thread.
(there's a Rebalancing compendium geared by a few people who know whats up, and go about balancing towards a middle point aka bring up the fighter, bring down the spell power meet in the middel *TOB*)

*Realize you're not the only person who has asked those same questions, and there have been many many people who have stood up and answered.

*Realize while the game can be broke. Every game is not broke, so don't sweat it to much, a simple "thou shalt not break the game should be enough to keep people from going campaign-curb-stomping. (allowing as many sources as possible actually lends itself to this because manytimes people do that in response to "Oh my GOD the Warlock/Psion/Swordsage is sooo broken!
Ahh..
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Original Sin

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #156 on: February 04, 2009, 02:59:23 PM »
Quote
The problem with ranged is that a reasonably buffed caster still has a high AC, as well as things like miss chance or mirror image. It faces the same issues as melee, as well as things that can totally negate ranged attacks, like Wind Wall.
Like I said, by level 5, casters can win solo battles pretty damned easily.

OK, perhaps 'broke' was the wrong word.  'Biased' however, most definitely.

Yes, there are tons of books for the other classes, but that's because you need them!  Just using the base SRD, casters on top by 5th.  And that's where the 'breakage/bias' begins.

Quote
*We play the other classes to be challenged and for the love of the game, optimize enough and there are workable no caster builds...

Dude, seriously, you know I'm all about the Rp'ing, not the dice.  That's why I play the scoundrel! :eh  Well, that and to 'liberate' all your goods, steal your womens hearts, and stab you in the neck. :smirk

Quote
*Don't do what paizo did. (go on ask what they did "I dare you")
Gee, since you brought it up.............What did Paizo do??? :P


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RobbyPants

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #157 on: February 04, 2009, 03:13:36 PM »
Gee, since you brought it up.............What did Paizo do??? :P
In a nutshell: nerfed non-casters and barely nerfed casters (or didn't in many cases).
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #158 on: February 04, 2009, 03:19:09 PM »
Oh, now you've done it.

First one thing. +5 AC vs ranged is very cheap.

Now, the nature of Paizil Fail. Yes, I realize that's a redundant term. Paizo claimed they would nerf casters and buff non casters. They actually did the opposite, as now casters get things like free metamagic, while the mundanes (this includes Rogues) lost the only tricks they ever had. At best, what they did is feed the 'new' fetish by making things different but no better. In most cases they just actively fucked everything up by incompetence or malice, your pick. Their entire community, barring a few rare individuals is composed of 'Super Happy Fun Time' whiners who are the antithesis of constructive and useful feedback and are a one way downward spiral to Epic Fail. This is at least part of the reason why they're screwing up so bad. Intelligence is literally a bannable offense from their forums, though they'll make up some illogical bullshit and claim that's the reason instead. Yes, I still have that email.

This is just the tip of the iceberg, but suffice it to say Paizo is a slow motion trainwreck, set on a loop to the Benny Hill Soundtrack while Hot Skitty on Wailord Action plays picture in picture style.
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Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Original Sin

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Re: Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)
« Reply #159 on: February 04, 2009, 03:20:33 PM »
Gee, since you brought it up.............What did Paizo do??? :P
In a nutshell: nerfed non-casters and barely nerfed casters (or didn't in many cases).


Eh, meant it as a rhetorical, but yeah, I know.  I liked the basic fighter no longer having dead levels though.  Not sure what to make of wizards schools being turned almost into domain clones, though.  (Hmm.  Wizards are just Arcane Clerics???  Where have I seen that before?!)

Sorry to derail.
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