Fighter V Wizard (Stolen from 339 boards)

[The_Mad_Linguist]

A) Yes they can^{[citation needed]}

B) Says "You get a true, one-word answer" RAW.   If you don't want the spell to work like that, I suggest you state your house rules before you begin discussion.  Otherwise people end up confused.

Are you too lazy to do a search of d20srd.org?

"Greater deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past and one week into the future for every divine rank they have."

[SorO_Lost]

Are you too lazy to do a search of d20srd.org?

"Greater deities automatically sense any event that involves their portfolios, regardless of the number of people involved. In addition, their senses extend one week into the past and one week into the future for every divine rank they have."

No, just wondering where in the hell you got the idea that a deity can predict events accurate enough to know exactly what spell you need.

When a deity senses an event, it merely knows that the event is occurring and where it is. The deity receives no sensory information about the event. Once a deity notices an event, it can use its remote sensing power to perceive the event.

Remote Sensing works in real time.

True Answer: You get a true, one-word answer. Questions that cannot be answered in this way are answered randomly.

You get an 'idk' based off the truth of the deity having no clue, or a random answer since you cannot really be answered to start with depending on how you wish to interpret it. Either way. Not that helpful.

[The_Mad_Linguist]

"Bob casting a spell" is an event related to the magic portfolio.

So is "bob casting the wrong spell", or "bob casting the best spell", or "Bob casting mordekaiden's faithful watchdog", or "bob creating a spell", or "bob buying a spell", or "bob preparing a spell" or "bob learning how to cast a higher level of spell".


And, again "Contact with minds far removed from your home plane increases the chance of the power knowing the answer, as well as the probability of the entity answering correctly, are likewise increased by moving to distant planes.

Now, if you want to nerf the spell, that's fine.  But admit that you're using house rules.


"You get a true, one-word answer. Questions that cannot be answered in this way are answered randomly."
Read exactly what it says.  Questions that cannot be answered with a true, one word answer, are answered randomly.  The question "Is this the best spell for me to prepare tomorrow morning" is indeed a question that can be answered with a "true, one-word answer".  That answer is either yes, or no.

Does the being you contacted know the answer?  I wonder if there's anything in the rules that addresses whether or not it knows?  Indeed, there is.  Why, it turns out " d% is rolled for the result shown on the table: ".  How helpful.



Essentially, what you're arguing is "fireball shouldn't work because there isn't always something flammable where you're targeting".

[Straw_Man]

Let's say a wizard has, oh, a selection of thirty possible spells he can choose from to prepare in his higher level slots.  

He writes them on a numbered list.

He casts Contact Other Plane.  Having at least a +6 bonus to int by now, he can take 10 on the ability check and always succeed in contacting a Greater Deity on an Outer Plane.  88% of the time, he gets the correct one-word answer to any question he asks.  At CL 10, you can ask five questions per casting.

Question 1 "what is the number of the spell on this list that will be most beneficial for me to prepare in the next week?"
Question 2 "what is the number of the spell on this list that is the second most beneficial for me to prepare in the next week?"
Question 3 "what is the number of the spell on this list that is the third most beneficial for me to prepare in the next week?"
Question 4 "what is the number of the spell on this list that is the fourth most beneficial for me to prepare in the next week?"
Question 5 "what is the number of the spell on this list that is the fifth most beneficial for me to prepare in the next week?"

Now, as there's no material or XP component, you can spam this spell as much as you want.  Two castings (asking the same questions) will give you a 98.5% chance of getting the right answer at least once, and less than a (10%/29)^2 = 0.0012% chance of getting the same wrong answer twice.  

You could ask different questions to get similar results - the method I had was just a little easier.  Breaking it down by spell level might be a good idea, but the principle is sound.

Other questions might, for instance, ask "What type of creatures, from the following list: {Abberation, construct, dragon, elemental, fey, giant, humanoid, magical beast, monstrous humanoid, ooze, outsider, plant, undead, vermin} will, in the next week, pose the greatest danger to me?"

Or if you're going to be facing enemies immune to mind effecting spells, or energy drain, or fire, or whatever.  The sky's the limit.


As a fifth level spell, using multiple contact other planes isn't going to cut into a wiz20's spell assortment at all.  At higher levels, he's going to say "in the next 48 hours", or "in the next day", and have the answer for his top 10 spells.  Rock on!

So, practically speaking, the high level wizard *will* always have the right spells prepared.

  Madre de dios  !!

  Okay, for the purposes of this argument I was wrong. That spell does make the wizard have the exacct spell for the job. Well played sir, well played.

[BowenSilverclaw]

Hoard gullet. 

Sounds good, what book is it in?

[Emy]

Hoard gullet.

Sounds good, what book is it in?

Dragon Magic.

Note that you'd better prep Shrink Item too. You need to be able to swallow the item to hold it. (It's made for dragons, obviously. Human mouths aren't as big.)

[The_Mad_Linguist]

The spell states "including items at least three size categories smaller than you", which means any diminutive object for most wizards - that is, up to 1 foot.  Presumably your smile grows proportionally.

Either way, it's enough to carry around a spellbook, your wallet, an additional spell component pouch, infrequently used scrolls, rations for a week, a 10' pole (sword swallowing routine may be needed), a live chicken, fifteen jars of honey and a discount scale model of the Eiffel tower.

[Anklebite]

Isn't always casting contact other plane a bit tedious?

anyways, can someone make this unstoppable 20th level wizard? preferably with prepared spells?  It is understandable if this is too much work to go through just to make a point...

[The_Mad_Linguist]

Isn't always casting contact other plane a bit tedious?

If it works, why change it?

The issue with a well-prepared wizard for arena fights is it's PC vs PC - while the GM can ensure the future data is accurate (I said shatter, right?  Here's a glass golem.), the only way to really deal with the contact other planes cast to know the best prepared spells is to, essentially, let the wizard prepare some number of anyspells (rolling secretly to see if the miniscule chance it isn't actually the spell they want comes up) - which I'm sure you'll agree is broken beyond belief. 

Man, that was a run-on sentence.


I suppose you could just let the wizard see the opponent's character sheet, but not vice versa, but it's not quite the same.

Basically, the wizard's in-game preparation just exceeded the metagame of Dungeons and Dragons.

[Sunic_Flames]

Adamantine armor does jack shit, aside from slowing you down. The crystals don't last very long. DR x/-, max (x * 10) a day means it's probably all drained in fight 1.

So you're counter point to beatsticks being able to lower their secondary stat is you have to buy more than one 3k item?

So I guess that means back on the point of you claiming all beatsticks are MAD and wizard don't need near as many ability points that my side has proven true. And that's without dipping into races, templates, classes, spells, etc. that hand out str & con boosts like their candy reducing the base scores needed to be effective even more.

Also, define bad saves. Because the difference is 6 points, ...

A wizard can use Bracers of Empyreal Armor +6 (valued at 64,000gp) to make up the difference sure.

But hey, that's 64k of gold this supposedly wizard does not need to invest in to make up the difference and the monk who requires more items than anything else in the game don't... Umm, sure? Where are you going with this again?

What kind of dumbass Wizard is sleeping out in the open?

Probably the one that thinks he needs less items than anyone else. You should have a talk with him.

And for fuck's sake, stop insulting the board's intelligence.

I'm not insulting the board. I'm just pointing out a wizard requires gear, a counter point to one person thinking they don't.
Fast fact: You are not the board. Less ego please.

they may not be able to afford a proper cloak, especially if they fall into the 'good save' trap, the 'thinks he's a caster killer because of SR' trap, the 'thinks he's good naked instead of the most equipment dependent class in the game' trap... all of which, based on your post YOU are falling into and more.

A. it's a response to a wizard not buying items to boost their saves. Stop and think on that long enough to get around those 'I'm going to bitch' thoughts. Same secondary stat priority, same no items. Oh look, the monk has 6 more points than the wizard. I guess the too item dependent class has less need of a cloak that the supposedly needs no items class you're defending.

B. I never said he is a caster killer. Please read before posting.
My first post was saying anything that hits a caster is meaningful. That went into weather or not a monk could deal enough to threaten a wizard, which apparently they cannot. The only thing I went into on a monk's SR was in a the focused branch of the item less monk being better off than the item less wizard. Having SR simply means a monk will make fewer saves. Explain how that's not true if you want.

Then explain to me how that means I said a monk is a caster killer.
Otherwise, stop shoving your words in my mouth and creating arguments that didn't exist until you made them.

C. I've been calling BS on this item less wizard the whole time while you run down this whole thing about a monk needing more items than anything else which some how says a wizard don't need items compared to every beatstick in the game (well, ability scores too, but we all knew that was was nocontest outside of of the lame hybrids wanting to be beatsticks). Explain how the monk requires more than everyone else. Explain how a wizard don't need any item.

D. If thinking the wizard needs more items than every class I listed in my last post is me being in a hole. Then pick me up some chinese food when you come back from yours.

So yeah. Take the time and explain me to your point. So far all I've gotten is mostly but crap. Hell the best point I've gotten out of you is a 4d10 unarmed damage example on the meaningful hit thing. And I don't think you can deal 4d10 to start with though the 30 points of damage is close enough so the point was made.

Your entire post is a straw man. The only part of it actually worth replying to is the bracers bit. Hint: You don't need to spend that kind of cash to do that. Hell, just +1 spellstrike shield spikes + GMW will give you up to +5 saves for 8k. Monk can't even do that. But you can. Granted it only helps against spells and SLAs, but aside from Supernatural abilities that's everything with a meaningful DC.

What is it with Monktards and Fail, anyways?

[Sunic_Flames]

But seriously. It's not hard to get your CL up. Superior Resistance is one 6th level spell. Elemental Body is one 7th level spell. Mind Blank is one 8th level spell. They last all day. Then there's some lower level spells that also last all day. The items you'd want? Most of them are Wondrous Items. Most of the rest are either Rods (of the metamagic variety) or Magic Arms and Armor. That latter one is there for your eager warning staff, defending armor spikes on your mithril twilight chain shirt, spellstrike shield spikes on your mithril buckler and so forth. Not a need, but you can get it all at half cost whenever you want it, compared to the Monk who needs something like 175% WBL and numerous custom items at the whim of DM fiat just to try to cover his Suck, much less be useful.

Wizard has everything he could possibly want covered, except maybe the rings which aren't that expensive in the first place.

[BowenSilverclaw]

Where's Spellstrike located?

[Anklebite]

End result is the Monk is lucky to break +20 to any save

.....
Ok, seriously, COME ON! 

I get that you think anything "not wizard" blows hot steamy vomit chunks, but THAT is ridiculous.

base save in all: +12
cloak of resistance: +5

(belt of magnificence +6 and cloak of resistance +5 assumed as ONLY items)
Fort: 17+con mod; anyone starting with at least 10 in con (and this is a melee char; it WILL be higher) meets +20 easily.
Ref: 17+dex mod; an unarmored char starting with only 10 dex? not gonna happen.
Will: 17+wis  mod; this is a MONK we are talking about here.... should be +8 or +11 at least.

why must you pull facts out of nowhere? if it is monk vs wizard you want to compare, use the real numbers, as they should be in your favor anyways... not this "hard to break +20" tripe.

(post this is reffering to was about two pages ago.... can't believe no one has said this yet)

[Midnight_v]

"Bob casting a spell" is an event related to the magic portfolio.

So is "bob casting the wrong spell", or "bob casting the best spell", or "Bob casting mordekaiden's faithful watchdog", or "bob creating a spell", or "bob buying a spell", or "bob preparing a spell" or "bob learning how to cast a higher level of spell".


And, again "Contact with minds far removed from your home plane increases the chance of the power knowing the answer, as well as the probability of the entity answering correctly, are likewise increased by moving to distant planes.

Now, if you want to nerf the spell, that's fine.  But admit that you're using house rules.


"You get a true, one-word answer. Questions that cannot be answered in this way are answered randomly."
Read exactly what it says.  Questions that cannot be answered with a true, one word answer, are answered randomly.  The question "Is this the best spell for me to prepare tomorrow morning" is indeed a question that can be answered with a "true, one-word answer".  That answer is either yes, or no.

Does the being you contacted know the answer?  I wonder if there's anything in the rules that addresses whether or not it knows?  Indeed, there is.  Why, it turns out " d% is rolled for the result shown on the table: ".  How helpful.



Essentially, what you're arguing is "fireball shouldn't work because there isn't always something flammable where you're targeting".

My Damn! Your ownage is complete! Fu.

p.s. "Sunic = the boards" in this case. We may not say it like he does but that general arrogance and "I know better than you" is there lurking. It normally takes someone with the effort like The_Mad_Linguist (props) or whoever it is at the time to show up to PROVE what the bulk of the Co crowd already know.
 It's not like people just came out of the blue and hate on non-melee-ists and have these baseless assumptions about caster power.
It's just natural trial and error and years of complied researched from all sorts of people that have led to these conclusions.
I think its just the railing against being told "Whats, what." that pisses so many people off, sometimes. Basically, no one likes a know it all and the collective of the Boards is somekind of Know-it-all when it comes to 3.5. (and probbably 4th too nowadays since P.I. and Tsusyo seem to have migrated...)

[Alastar]

Just so we're clear, is there ANYTHING a beatstick can do to threaten a wizard?

Of course. So in the matching tradition seen in other threads with a role reversal...

If he's wearing light armor, he's likely a swordsage, and thus theoretically has teleportation maneuvers. Win initiative with Moment of Prescience (which I'm sure he'd disapprove of, because using your class features is soooo unfair), then dimensional anchor and quickened web.

So you do have some items. I'll go with assuming you meant no magical items.

Moment of Prescience works on opposed ability checks. Initiative is just an ability check and is not considered an opposed check. Regardless, Uncanny Dodge only takes a two level dip into warblade or barbarian and would allow them to use counters during your go. I would flat out say if he knows anything about what he is facing he has it. So with that in mind don't use anything save based on him. Also beware of him just using Sudden Leap to move out of your area effects. He could have his full move speed to get close and use a strike on you. Strikes btw are worse than full attacks. I hope you went for the unfair 100 space between you and him.

In this area your lucky magical items are not allowed though. Else you probably would miss with the anchor and leave your self open to a Battle Jump combo and you would be a smear on the floor before it's even his turn. Oh, and you won't have to worry about a rod of absorption limiting your spell choice.

Next round, throw out a forcecage. He can't go anywhere. dispel the web.

If he took warblade levels he IHSes and your cloudkill effect is gone. Also he made his save so you only dealt 2 con damage. You would have time to sit there and build traps around him. But if he has IHS then this is worse than round one since now your down a few of your highest spells and he has a ready action.

Now you just cast invisibility. He's taking huge CON damage for a few rounds.

And hope he don't have Hunter's Sense and find you anyway?
Plus I'd personally buy the 3k or so for permanent See Invisible cast on me if I were him. You should plan for that too.

Then hit him with a save or die effect. Then polymorph into something big and kill his ass. And use Limited Wish to imitate divine power/righteous might.

ToBers are not fighters, you cannot insult them by becoming a melee monster to attack them. They will mop the floor with your bodily remains. Stick to spellcasting and do not engage them in melee range ever.

You also cannot use an immediate action if you are flat-footed.

Stance of alacrity gives you a free ''immediate action to use as a counter'' it does not state that you can do it when you wouldn't normally be able to, that whole statement was ridiculous to the extreme.  Also, if you are webbed, you are immobilised, sudden leap won't change that.  If you arent immobilised, you're still entangled, that is -4 to your dex and half speed.  So your no running start sudden leap has a return of 2 on the skill point for 1 foot score, and with entanglement, it's 4 for 1, to get 5 feets further, you need to break dc 20, to get out of the web, you need to get 100 on your jump, hard to do without magic items.  Leaping dragon stance only lowers this to dc 80, if you ever wondered.

3: while IHS DOES break cloudkill, it does not break forcecage, that is like saying you can break walls in your way cause they ''affect your progress'' forcecage makes a cage appear around you, it does not affect you.  SO sorry, you're still trapped!!!  And from there the wizard may take a few rounds to decide what is the best way to buttrape you.
Dimensional anchor can easily be replaced with dimensional lock, witch does about the same thing, only no saves and at range.

4: I thought we had no items except the base ones needed to fight, permanent see invisibility is an ''item'' while the reagents to cast your spell is not, according to common logic.  If you disagree, well.... I won't do anything, except shake my head and once again be disappointed by the geek community, who i thought had more sense than this...  Also, Hunter's sense gives scent, witch is a somewhat limited way to find invisible ennemies:

 

This extraordinary ability lets a creature detect approaching enemies, sniff out hidden foes, and track by sense of smell.

A creature with the scent ability can detect opponents by sense of smell, generally within 30 feet. If the opponent is upwind, the range is 60 feet. If it is downwind, the range is 15 feet. Strong scents, such as smoke or rotting garbage, can be detected at twice the ranges noted above. Overpowering scents, such as skunk musk or troglodyte stench, can be detected at three times these ranges.

Noting the direction of the scent is a move action.

And a no item warblade vs a no item wizard, and the wizard is approprietly buffed with polymorph and other various things (maybe arcane strike even!!) the wizard still wins, harsh truth, ridiculous truth, but still the truth.

[Sunic_Flames]

Where's Spellstrike located?

MIC. It's Defending for saves basically.

Anklebite, if you're going to assume they have 225k left after spending over a million on their other must haves out of 760k total, at least have the sense to not waste cash on that belt.

Also, straw man. It's not 'non wizards suck' it's more like all of the low end non casters suck, and the high end non casters suck without at least moderate optimization. Stuff like Warblades, Psychic Warriors, etc? Probably still get owned by casters, but do not necessarily get owned by everything else, and can actually counter a few tricks like warping out of Forcecages which necessitates binding them to this dimension.

And Midnight, arrogance is unfounded confidence. I actually know my shit, unlike the Monktards. Therefore I am by the definition of the word not arrogant. You are correct though, in that it's like explaining to someone that the sky is blue and there isn't a legitimate reason for their doubting such as being blind. You could waste a lot of the words, or say look at it you fucking fucker and see for yourself. Most people, if they ever doubt will check effortlessly and confirm it, without bugging others with dumbass questions and conversation lines. Then there's the crowd too lazy for that that wants you to do everything for them. Those deserve mild to moderate smiting, and so they shall have it.

[PhaedrusXY]

Remote Sensing works in real time.

I don't see any such limitation, and from the way Portfolio Sense mentions it, it sounds like it is trying to explicitly say he can look into the past or future when the two are combined.

Someone asked about a wizard who can own everything, especially anti-wizard melee builds. I was working on one for one of those silly "fighter vs. wizard" threads. Here is what I came up with. http://brilliantgameologists.com/boards/index.php?topic=346.msg95287#msg95287
There are a few errors, as I just whipped it out in a few minutes and didn't go over it carefully (like he needs Scribe Scroll, but still has tons of free feat slots). It was also made to be able to take out the fighter's wizard cohort, if he has one. And I had a plan for what he'd do if someone tried to catch him in an AMF, and it would even work for a core-only wizard, pretty much 100% of the time.

Fun idea with the Contact Other Plane stuff. I might have to try that. I especially love this part

Basically, the wizard's in-game preparation just exceeded the metagame of Dungeons and Dragons.

Because it is true, and is part of the reason DMs often hate Divination spells. They don't even know what's going to happen that far into the future.

[Agita]

A) Yes they can^{[citation needed]}

B) Says "You get a true, one-word answer" RAW^[1].   If you don't want the spell to work like that, I suggest you state your house rules before you begin discussion.  Otherwise people end up confused.

^[1]True Answer: You get a true, one-word answer. Questions that cannot be answered in this way are answered randomly.

All I have to say is check your sources...

Here's your citation. You just need to contact a magic-related deity. Do you get a choice as to the type of deity you contact (As in, portfolio and stuff)?

[BowenSilverclaw]

A) Yes they can^{[citation needed]}

B) Says "You get a true, one-word answer" RAW^[1].   If you don't want the spell to work like that, I suggest you state your house rules before you begin discussion.  Otherwise people end up confused.

^[1]True Answer: You get a true, one-word answer. Questions that cannot be answered in this way are answered randomly.

All I have to say is check your sources...

Here's your citation. You just need to contact a magic-related deity. Do you get a choice as to the type of deity you contact (As in, portfolio and stuff)?

You too can rape your DMs plot. Just dial 1-800-Boccob, that's 1-800-Boccob.

Call now and receive a free anti-folding-chair suit of body armor.

[Sunic_Flames]

That is simulated by the 88% success chance.