Author Topic: [Grey Citadel] Will Knock Down SR for Food (Daring Outlaw)  (Read 2470 times)

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ksbsnowowl

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Jered Winter
Human Rogue 2/Swashbuckler 3

Medium Humanoid
Hit Dice: 2d6 + 3d10 + 10 (XX hp)
Initiative: +3
Speed: 30 ft.
Armor Class: 18, Touch: 13, Flat-footed: 15
Base Attack/Grapple: +4/+5
Attack: +1 Cold Iron Short Sword +8 (1d6 + 5, 19-20/x2); Dagger +7 (1d4 + 4, 19-20/x2)
Full Attack:
Space/Reach: 5 ft/5 ft
Special Qualities: Evasion, Sneak Attack +1d6, Grace +1, Insightful Strike
Saves: Fort +5, Ref +8, Will +1
Abilities: Str 12, Dex 17, Con 14, Int 16, Wis 10, Cha 8
Skills: Skills: Balance: 9* (5 ranks), Bluff: 7 (8 ranks), Diplomacy: 3 (0 ranks), Disguise (Act in Character): 1 (0 ranks), Gather Info: 7 (8 ranks), Hide: 10* (8 ranks), Intimidate: 1 (0 ranks), Jump: 2* (0 ranks), Listen: 8 (8 ranks), Move Silently: 10* (8 ranks), Search: 11 (8 ranks), Sense Motive: 8 (8 ranks), Sleight of Hand: 4* (0 ranks), Spot: 8 (8 ranks), Survival (Following Tracks): 2, Tumble: 10* (8 ranks), Use Magic Device: 6 (7 ranks), *These skills have a -1 Armor Check Penalty factored in.
Feats: Able Learner, Undo Resistance, Weapon Finesse, Investigate
Environment: Any
Organization: Solitary or Adventuring Party
Challenge Rating: 5
Alignment: CG
Languages Spoken: Common, Abyssal, Celestial, Infernal
Level Adjustment: +0
 

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[/spoiler]

Character background:

So, the general build concept for this character is to be an adept sneak attacker who uses a cold iron weapon to knock down the Spell Resistance of outsiders, etc, when we come up against them.  He's also focused on investigation, given the focus of the campaign.

He will be picking up the Daring Outlaw feat next level, and will spend most of his remaining levels in Swashbuckler (I want to maximize my Sneak Attack and my BAB).

At some point in the future, I would like to pick up the Assassin's Stance stance from Tome of Battle (along with Cloak of Deception) followed by the Shadow Blade feat from ToB to add Dex to damage.  There are a few different ways I could go about this, but I'm not sure what is the best way.  In all truth, I'd prefer to only lose 1 level of Rogue/Swashbuckler progression, so that I don't lose any sneak attack dice from that.  I'd also like to maintain most of the skills I've got.

Options:

Option 1:  I could take one or two levels of Swordsage to gain several maneuvers, and at least Cloak of Deception.  If I took the second level of Swordsage at 9th level, I could gain Assassin's Stance without expending any feats, and then gain the Shadow Blade feat. Or I could take only the one level of Swordsage and gain Assassin's Stance via a feat.

Advantages: 
  • No or only one feat expenditure and gets me Assassin's Stance fairly quickly.
  • Could get me Shadow Blade by 9th level.
  • Provides a boost to skills.
  • Would get me the effects of Weapon Focus.
  • Grants me a relatively large host of maneuvers known
  • Grants me a (crappy) recovery mechanic.

Disadvantages: 
  • Loses a point of BAB (but does gain Weap Foc for free).
  • If I take 2 levels, I end up losing an overall die of Sneak Attack.

Option 2:  I could take a level of Warblade and gain Cloak of Deception and Assassin's Stance via feats.  Perhaps I would take a level of fighter to offset the feat cost.

Advantages: 
  • Grants me a good recovery mechanic.
  • Maintains my BAB
  • Grants me a +1 bonus on Reflex saves due to my intelligence.
  • Grants me the same amount of skills as Swashbuckler would.

Disadvantages: 
  • Still costs me two feats.
  • If I take the level of fighter to offset the feat cost, I will lose an overall die of Sneak Attack
  • If I take the level of fighter, I'll lose out on some skills.

Option 3:  I could simply take 1 or 2 levels of fighter, to help offset the feat costs.

Advantages: 
  • Maintains BAB
  • Helps offset feat costs
  • I could have Assassin's Stance by 10th level, and Shadow Blade by 12th level, or 11th level if I took 2 levels.

Disadvantages: 
  • I'd have no recovery mechanic for Cloak of Disception.
  • I'd lose out on an overall die of Sneak Attack if I took 2 levels.
  • My skills would suffer

So, which do people think would be the best trade off?  I wasn't planning on getting weapon focus anyway, so Swordsage doesn't actually cost me much... just getting my additional attacks from BAB a level later.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2008, 04:40:28 PM by ksbsnowowl »
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pfooti

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Re: [Grey Citadel] Will Knock Down SR for Food (Daring Outlaw)
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2008, 03:01:10 PM »
Personally, I'd suggest going with Swordsage. Island of Blades is another excellent shadow hand stance. You can use IoB to get flanking benefits (sneak attack, +2 attack) in a lot of situations where normal flanking is harder to maintain. You can switch into Assassin's Stance for the extra 2d6 Sneak attack when you don't need the cheater's flank.

Also, +3 will saves and a bunch of good skill points are okay, as well as the potential of WIS to AC (no benefit there at your current statline). The loss in BAB is partially offset by weapon focus (for total AB, but not iterative attacks), and while the recovery mechanic is terrible, it's the least feat-intensive choice.

Plus, this way you can also pick up the shadow hand teleport maneuver, as well as the burning blade boost (excellent even at high levels with TWF).

ksbsnowowl

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Re: [Grey Citadel] Will Knock Down SR for Food (Daring Outlaw)
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2008, 03:05:31 PM »
Very true on the teleport maneuver.  I'd meant to add that in the list of advantages, as I'm seriously considering dropping the Rod of Escape for a Heward's Handy Haversack.  I'll still have to think it over (not like I don't have the time), and someone else may have a great suggestion too.  Thanks!
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Shadeseraph

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Re: [Grey Citadel] Will Knock Down SR for Food (Daring Outlaw)
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2008, 03:15:23 PM »
First, rogue and, by extension, swashbuckler/Daring Outlaw, get SA at odd levels. If you are losing 2 swashbuckler levels, you could lose a 3rd. For SA optimization, you might consider a level in SA fighter thug.

I would say that swordsage for all you stated, included the ability to take the DM counters (mind over body, moment of perfect mind, etc). In a non-combat focused campaign, said counters are great. And you need feats.

Also, Gloom Razor and Child of Shadow can work pretty well. Sudden Leap or Pouncing Charge can be great with gloom razor.

Alternatively, Island of Blades can help so much against many enemies or intelligent ones.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2008, 03:24:50 PM by Shadeseraph »
[spoiler]
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ksbsnowowl

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Re: [Grey Citadel] Will Knock Down SR for Food (Daring Outlaw)
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2008, 03:35:38 PM »
I just glanced through ToB again, and saw several maneuvers I'd like to have, so Swordsage is looking better and better.

Cloak of Deception, Island of Blades, Assassin's Stance, Shadow Jaunt, Mountain Hammer (bye-bye locks...), maybe the 2nd and 3rd level Shadow Hand Con- and Str-damaging maneuvers (but they rely on Wis for DC, and mine is 10...), Shadow Blade Technique wouldn't be bad.

Emerald Razor would be awesome, but requires another Diamond Mind maneuver, and none of them would do me much good.  The only other ones I qualify for that aren't stances is the Moment of Perfect Mind maneuver, but I'll not have ranks in concentration, and with 2 levels in Swordsage, my Will save will be +5 anyway.  But I suppose I could take it, and then never ready it.

Good call on the level of Sneak Attack fighter, though.  Thanks!
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ksbsnowowl

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Re: [Grey Citadel] Will Knock Down SR for Food (Daring Outlaw)
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2008, 03:56:35 PM »
One concern will be XP penalties.  Because I will be Rogue 3/Swashbuckler 3 at 6th level, any dip into Swordsage will cost me an XP penalty for at least a level.  And dipping a level of Sneak Attack Fighter/Thug would bring me XP penalties again....

Hmm.... Things to think about...
« Last Edit: May 23, 2008, 04:52:40 PM by ksbsnowowl »
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Shadeseraph

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Re: [Grey Citadel] Will Knock Down SR for Food (Daring Outlaw)
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2008, 05:01:53 PM »
Well, you can't do a thing about the XP penalty for multiclassing into swordsage/fighter/warblade. But the thug level can be taken at 20. Unless you go epic, It won't matter. And, if you go, you aren't a caster, so it won't matter either.

EDIT: alternatively, you could pick that feat in Unearthed arcana that lets you have a second favored class. I wouldn't do it, though.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2008, 05:04:32 PM by Shadeseraph »
[spoiler]
I hate mouth breathing fuckwits who go around spouting lies, even after being corrected on those lies, and that bait mods into helping to defend their wrongness and fail. I also hate the MBFs that don't understand the meaning of words, and that can't get a fucking clue.
Hey! I like spouting lies. It's very entertaining to observe how people on the internet are buffing their small egos by declaring victories over some stupid MBFs. :smirk
Also - I hate people who use too smart words that I don't understand. :mad

Hi Welcome

Go fuck yourself, because others won't do it for you.

Stop flirting you two.  :p
[/spoiler]

pfooti

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Re: [Grey Citadel] Will Knock Down SR for Food (Daring Outlaw)
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2008, 05:10:27 PM »
Yeah, if you go Rogue3/Swashbuckler3/Swordsage1, you'll carry the XP penalty for just a level, because you can take swordsage 2 at CL8 and gain Assassin's stance (6 levels at half-IL + 2 IL = IL5 = 3rd-level stance). Alternatively, you could put off Swashbuckler3 to CL9 and get daring outlaw then.

Also, the campaign will probably be completed at level 13 or so. Of course, if there's a lot of momentum, I can pretty easily add stuff to the game, but either way it's not worth worrying about the build at 20, I'd say.

ksbsnowowl

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Re: [Grey Citadel] Will Knock Down SR for Food (Daring Outlaw)
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2008, 05:59:59 PM »
Well, I don't actually need Swashbuckler 3 to get Daring Outlaw - it's just the nice level for Int to damage.  I'll have to play with the levels, and see what I come up with.
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