Author Topic: Knockback/Dungeoncrash/Decisive Strike? Help Needed!  (Read 6580 times)

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iconoplast

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Knockback/Dungeoncrash/Decisive Strike? Help Needed!
« on: January 25, 2009, 03:56:00 AM »
I've been fiddling around with the idea of integrating Decisive Strike into a Dungeoncrasher build.  The idea of a warhulk dungeoncrasher seemed like too much fun, and the notion of an overwhelmingly powerful single attack seemed to follow naturally after it.

Basic premise: Big Warhulk w/ reach weapon in thicket of blades stance throwing enemies around when they generate AoOs.

Assumptions: LA Buyoff for a +1 LA.  Powerful Build qualifies for War Hulk.  Swordsage's discipline focus counts as Weapon Focus.

Build stub: Monk (Overwhelming Attack var.) 2 / Fighter (Dungeoncrash) 2 / Crusader 2 / Swordsage 1 / Shou Disciple 5 / War Hulk 4.   

Feats: Dodge (1), Improved US, Power Attack (M1), Improved Bull Rush (M2), Cleave (3), Combat Expertise (F1), Weapon Focus (US) (Swordsage 1), Dungeoncrash (F2), Knockback (6), Improved Trip (SD 1), Combat Reflexes (9), Shock Trooper (12).

Open Feats (3): Shou Disciple 4, Lv. 15, 18.

Ideas for the last 4 levels: Warblade 1 / Bloodstorm Blade 3. (Would let me adaptive style my weapon focus & chuck greatswords around).  Also, Iron Heart Surge.  Otherwise, Shadow Sun Ninja 4 (would give me a monk level of 11, so 2 decisive strikes/round).

Problems with the build:  Improved Trip delayed until lv. 9.  Knockback delayed to level 6.  I wish there were a way to get both into the build earlier.  Only 3 feats to get any Lockdown abilities going (Robilar's?  Karmic?  I have no idea what to pick), and they are very late in the build.

Cool stuff about the build: Great synergy w/r/t: Decisive strike (monk) with any weapon (Shou) on AoOs (Thicket of Blades) sends all enemies in range (war hulk) flying (knockback) into each other (shock trooper) or the wall (dungeoncrasher) for massive damage (war hulk). 

I feel, though, like this build needs tightening up... optimizing, if you will.  And that's why I'm posting.

iconoplast

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Re: Knockback/Dungeoncrash/Decisive Strike? Help Needed!
« Reply #1 on: January 25, 2009, 03:57:37 AM »
This PC is more concept/exercise than intended-for-play, but: Any WotC 3.5, non-superceded 3.0 that doesn't scream abuse, very sparing use of dragon magazine, and only if absolutely necessary. 

anomalousman

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Re: Knockback/Dungeoncrash/Decisive Strike? Help Needed!
« Reply #2 on: January 25, 2009, 07:33:00 PM »
I think powerful build doesn't qualify for war hulk explicitly in the FAQ. But LA+2 will get you there.

There's a knockback weapon enchantment that can replace the knockback feat with ease, so you can get everything going earlier.  I think MIC or DMG2.

JaronK

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Re: Knockback/Dungeoncrash/Decisive Strike? Help Needed!
« Reply #3 on: January 25, 2009, 08:55:06 PM »
I'm not sure if this works, but check the wordings on Decisive Strike and Shield Slam.  If those could work together, it would be awesome.

JaronK

Brainpiercing

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Re: Knockback/Dungeoncrash/Decisive Strike? Help Needed!
« Reply #4 on: January 26, 2009, 12:36:55 PM »
Why would you need Cleave at (3)? Take Knockback at 3 as any sane Crasher and  go for damage first, BC later, delay Combat Expertise or something like that, and get Combat Reflexes earlier or your whole setup will work too late.

Get Shocktrooper earlier.

Overall Improved Trip is your last asset, IMHO. YES it gives you +4 to trip on a Domino-rush with Shocktrooper, but remember that those trips are free, with no chance of counter-trip. You're still hitting them for insane damage, even if they don't fall.

Also, you might persuade your DM to let you apply crashing damage, too, when enemies fly into each other.

Also, ask your DM to give reach to weapons based on true weapon size and not by simply doubling the natural reach. I've managed to persuade my current DM to do this and IMHO it's a good house-rule. I also use it in my campaign.
So a medium sized reach weapon would add five ft, a large sized reach weapon 10 ft, etc.
« Last Edit: January 26, 2009, 12:43:16 PM by Brainpiercing »

woodenbandman

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Re: Knockback/Dungeoncrash/Decisive Strike? Help Needed!
« Reply #5 on: January 26, 2009, 01:15:36 PM »
Forget overwhelming attack, dude, go Passive Way. It gets you combat expertise, which opens up improved trip. All you got from Overwhelming attack is a feat that you'd take anyway. Use fighter levels to pick up improved bull rush and power attack.

The feats you need are combat reflexes, knockback, power attack, improved bull rush, shock trooper, Knockdown, and Cleave. You get 3 bonus feats with that build, and 5 general feats, leaving you a bit feat starved...

What I'd do is swap those Shou Disciple levels. You can use Snap Kick if you want to get an extra unarmed attack and use an Unarmed Swordsage, which has unimpressive damage, but here's the kicker: Replace those monk levels with fighter levels, netting you -1 feats, but giving you Dungeoncrasher +4, for +8d6 damage on a bull rush into a wall. Then, You can pick up combat reflexes, perhaps through normal monk levels, perhaps through some other thing, and get Thicket of Blades as a stance from Crusader, which leaves you with 10 levels so far, Fighter6/Crusader2/Monk2, or Fighter6/Crusader2/Lion Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian1/Swordsage1, and then you can fill out the rest of your build with War Hulk 10, and get a Skillful weapon, which grants you BAB equal to 3/4 your hit dice.

This basically allows you to charge in and pounce with 4 attacks that hit everything you threaten, and take a -15 penalty to AC in order to gain a +30 bonus on your bull rush, with a total modifier of, like +60, knocking everything back at least 30 feet unless it's super collossal, and this number only gets bigger if you have a friendly party enlarger. Anything knocked into a wall takes 8d6+1-1/2 your STR modifier, +30 power attack damage, and everything trying to get back at you gets whirlwinded back into the wall.

It's quite feat intensive but this basic build skeleton is my favorite Melee build, because it can actually competently perform combat maneuvers such as bull rush, trip, disarm, and grapple, albeit it's not quite the best grappler in the world.

I do see the synergy with Shou Disciple adding to the knockback-ability by adding double damage, but you can get quite a lot more damage by using shock trooper to reliably hit anything for incredible damage and guarantee it will not get back up. Remember, you don't have to bull rush on the first attack, you can wait until the 4th attack, which is still at a +40 or so between your 50 odd strength and any bonuses the party might be packing. Plus, the swift action jump maneuvers will help you get into the fray and add Leap attack for more Power Attack damage.

You know, a mountain raging Frenzied Berserker might actually be able to get higher bonuses to knocking people back, but it can't quite knock back everything within a 20 mile radius.

This build will want to wield a spiked chain, and if you can get it valorous, more power to you. Feat load ends up

Spiked Chain prof(though if it's Skillful I believe that you're proficient in it)
Power Attack
Improved Bull Rush
Combat Reflexes
Knockback
Knockdown
Shock Trooper
Cleave
Great Cleave(hey, you might actually make use of this one)
Leap Attack
1 more feat.

If you can get a belt of permanent or at-will augmented expansion, that will get you Huge size, meaning your reach with the chain is 30 feet. You might actually want those monk levels after all, seeing as how you don't need the extra feats but they are nice. This build also has incredible fortitude saves and decent reflex saves coupled with evasion, and you might be able to afford steadfast determination (drop great cleave for it).

Brainpiercing

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Re: Knockback/Dungeoncrash/Decisive Strike? Help Needed!
« Reply #6 on: January 26, 2009, 01:39:07 PM »
Having recently looked at the city ACFs I recommend the Ferocity ACF for barbs as an alternative to Whirling Frenzy:
You get +4 Dex, meaning +2 AC and +2 AoOs.

What this variant still needs is Deft Opportunist, although it can only do a little to alleviate the immense hitting problems you'll be having on your AoOs due to high PA.

Granted, getting Improved Trip DOES make sense now.

woodenbandman

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Re: Knockback/Dungeoncrash/Decisive Strike? Help Needed!
« Reply #7 on: January 26, 2009, 03:07:50 PM »
High PA is partially negated by having a skillful weapon as a War Hulk 10, as well as, of course, using Shock Trooper.

skydragonknight

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Re: Knockback/Dungeoncrash/Decisive Strike? Help Needed!
« Reply #8 on: January 26, 2009, 03:59:55 PM »
Two words to describe Decisive Strike + Knockback:

[spoiler]Falcon Punch![/spoiler]
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Cyphrus

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Re: Knockback/Dungeoncrash/Decisive Strike? Help Needed!
« Reply #9 on: January 28, 2009, 03:10:38 AM »
I don't know if you'd be interested, but there is a ACF for barbarians where they trade uncanny dodge for Improved Trip.

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/variant/classes/variantCharacterClasses.htm#wolfTotemClassFeatures

I hope that helps!

iconoplast

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Re: Knockback/Dungeoncrash/Decisive Strike? Help Needed!
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2009, 05:04:35 PM »
Wow, thanks for all the responses. 

For the record, the Shou Disciple levels let me use Decisive Strike with any weapon, and give bonus feats that I need.  That's what they're there for.  The thing is, since Shou Disciple 1 *gives* Flurry of Blows (& therefore Decisive Strike), I've been trying to find a workaround where I don't take Monk Levels.  Barbarian 2 (Wolf Totem) gives Improved Trip w/o Combat Expertise, so I'm only down two feats.

Here's the cool thing, though: if Powerful Build doesn't qualify me for War Hulk, then Mountain Rage does, only while I'm raging.  In other words, so long as I'm raging, I have all the advantages and disadvantages of War Hulk, but when I'm not raging, No Time to Think no longer applies.

I can't decide if that's good (because I get to keep other skills) or bad (because my saves are hosed when I'm not raging).

Either way, I can't fit the feats together right - if I take Barb 2 instead of Monk 2, I end up taking Shou Disciple last, and have nothing to do with the bonus feats it gives, since they're from a pretty lame selection.

Current Build (Any Powerful build race w/ LA Buyoff):
Crusader 1 (Dodge)
Monk 1 [Decisive Strike, Power Attack, Improved Unarmed Strike]
Monk 2 [Improved Bull Rush, Evasion]  (Knockback)
Fighter 1 [Weapon Focus (Unarmed)]
Fighter 2 [Dungeoncrash I]
Shou Disciple 1 (Cleave)
Shou Disciple 2 [Comb. Ref.]
Shou Disciple 3 [Martial Flurry (light)]
Warblade 1 [IH Surge, WR Tactics] (Comb. Exp.)
Crusader 2 [Thicket of Blades]
Shou Disciple 4 [Improved Trip]
Shou Disciple 5 [Martial Flurry (any)] (Point Blank Shot)
Bloodstorm Blade 1
Bloodstorm Blade 2
Bloodstorm Blade 3 [Robilar's Gambit] (Shock Trooper)
Bloodstorm Blade 4 [lightning Ricochet]
War Hulk 1
War Hulk 2 [Great Swing] (Great Cleave)
War Hulk 3
War Hulk 4 [Mighty Swing]

Crusader 1 is a great start.  I imagine I'd ignore the monk abilities until Shou Disciple granted the ability to pull them off in armor & with weapons.  I think I like this build - it progresses naturally, there's nothing fancy to remember, and you end up being able to make a whole lot of AoOs, mixing thrown & melee attacks. 

Since any abilities that apply to melee attacks apply to your thrown attacks, you're making Knockback Decisive Strike Mighty Swings at range (which is pretty cool). 

On each swing you make, for every opponent in range, you get five attacks:
Knockback -> Shocktrooper (if you knock 1 into a 2nd one's square)-> 2 Free Trip Attempts -> 2 Extra Attacks (Improved Trip) + 2 Extra Attacks (Great Cleave).

So, I think you're great on crowd control.  I might swap Robilar's Gambit for Leap Attack, though, to go with Shock Trooper's charge ability.