Author Topic: Help with a Pathfinder character  (Read 4663 times)

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Silent Wayfarer

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Help with a Pathfinder character
« on: January 22, 2009, 10:33:15 AM »
I'm going to be part of a high-level Pathfinder campaign (15+) and I can't be bothered to make a caster, because I'm tired of them thematically. I've hard good things about the Barbarian and the Rogue; the former has the capacity for absolutely enormous amounts of burst damage with Devastating Blow and friends, while the Rogue is essentially the featrogue with lots of extra fun goodies.

Which do you think is stronger? Should I go for a mounted lancer or a ground-bound scytheman if I go the barbarian route? Similarly, what tricks are there to get the delicious sneak attack with the rogue in PF?

Midnight_v

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Re: Help with a Pathfinder character
« Reply #1 on: January 22, 2009, 10:54:11 AM »
Uh... Just out of curiosity... why didn't you ask the Paizo boards?  :twitch
...
...or are you just casting a wider net?
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Help with a Pathfinder character
« Reply #2 on: January 22, 2009, 11:27:27 AM »
I'm going to be part of a high-level Pathfinder campaign (15+) and I can't be bothered to make a caster, because I'm tired of them thematically. I've hard good things about the Barbarian and the Rogue; the former has the capacity for absolutely enormous amounts of burst damage with Devastating Blow and friends, while the Rogue is essentially the featrogue with lots of extra fun goodies.

Which do you think is stronger? Should I go for a mounted lancer or a ground-bound scytheman if I go the barbarian route? Similarly, what tricks are there to get the delicious sneak attack with the rogue in PF?

This again. Fine.

Ok, you're playing a high level PF campaign and don't want a caster. That means your options are...

*drumrolls*

Piddly shit.

Seriously. High level 3.5 is already pretty much casters only. PF took every reason why this is so and magnified it. So since you don't want to play a caster, your only option is what sort of Red Shirt do you want to wear.

To be more precise, Rogues have lost their ability to effectively SA in battle. About oh... 90% of the rage stuff is A Trap, and the few uses that are actually good are more than countered by the PA and Improved Trip nerfs.

Your best course of action is to get your DM to upgrade back to 3.5. Then maybe, helping you will not be an impossible task due to hardset limitations. Failing this, your best option is to abuse the shit out of the caster buffs until your DM wises up and upgrades to 3.5, then see above.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Silent Wayfarer

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Re: Help with a Pathfinder character
« Reply #3 on: January 22, 2009, 11:37:09 AM »
Amusing how original 3.5 is seen to be an upgrade to PF. :p

Change of tack - has the sorcerer seen enough improvement to begin competing with the big three? The main reason why I'm avoiding casters is because spell prep is a pain. At least with sorcerers I only have to agonize about spell selection once per level. Or something.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Help with a Pathfinder character
« Reply #4 on: January 22, 2009, 12:14:59 PM »
Amusing how original 3.5 is seen to be an upgrade to PF. :p

Change of tack - has the sorcerer seen enough improvement to begin competing with the big three? The main reason why I'm avoiding casters is because spell prep is a pain. At least with sorcerers I only have to agonize about spell selection once per level. Or something.

That's because PF is a downgrade from 3.5.

From what I've seen, they just get minor little abilities to fuel the 'new' fetish - that is to say, adding new stuff without actually fixing or improving anything, to trick the gullible and the stupid into believing they are actually improving stuff.

As for spell prep, you could just experiment a little until you find a good general purpose set up (it won't take long, spells are awesome like that) and then just use that over and over, unless you have a reason to do otherwise. Amounts to about the same thing, but lets you fix your mistakes if you make any.
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And don't forget:


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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Help with a Pathfinder character
« Reply #5 on: January 22, 2009, 01:26:11 PM »
Can you use 3.5 books? Or just core Pathfinder?
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Silent Wayfarer

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Re: Help with a Pathfinder character
« Reply #6 on: January 22, 2009, 02:22:14 PM »
Probably core pathfinder. The chap is running some sort of playtest, and since the Pathfinder Boon or Bane thread here has convinced me that any worthwhile feedback will never make it into the ears of someone with the potential to do anything with it, I just want to have some fun. Wizzards and the other prep-casters... too much book-keeping for me. Didn't like them much. Didn't stop me from making wizard gishes in 3.5 (hey, I'm a fan of sword and sorcery) but damn, was that a PITA.

Incidentally, I was Rashomon on the 339 CO Boards. Now I'm just another dumb guy. Hooray.

EDIT: Also, if this were 3.5, I'd already have a bunch of mental shortcuts as to what I want. The problem then would be "which exact build do I use to twink out the funky character archetype I have in my head?" Since this is PF, my knowledge is extremely minimal (I just got the PDF today, for instance) and it'll take me a while to fully digest it and make the right decisions. I'll probably have to echo the popular opinions and say that fighter types got more toys, but you don't use toys to kill dragons.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2009, 02:26:09 PM by Silent Wayfarer »

wO-_-OdrOw

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Re: Help with a Pathfinder character
« Reply #7 on: January 22, 2009, 02:36:03 PM »
Since they have that auto-crit feat, just be a damage monkey Barbarian  wielding a Scythe, like you mentioned. The fighter's foil ability is pretty sweet, too. I forget when they get decent amounts of uses of it, though. Taking bonus feats from that book is pretty crappy. You'll probably run out of them if you went for straight fighter.
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Help with a Pathfinder character
« Reply #8 on: January 22, 2009, 02:55:51 PM »
You'd run out of good PF beatstick feats as a level 3 non human non Fighter. And that may be overly generous.

As for prep casters, if you just devise your list and only deviate when you have a need it amounts to the same amount of effort as a spontaneous caster, except with 90% less fuck you if you pick the wrong spell today.

And about the crit thing? That's just making the beatsticks into gimp Rogues. Why bother?
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And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Ubernoob

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Re: Help with a Pathfinder character
« Reply #9 on: January 22, 2009, 03:09:23 PM »
Sune's right.
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juton

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Re: Help with a Pathfinder character
« Reply #10 on: January 22, 2009, 03:35:23 PM »
If you can us 3.5 feats a Barbarian can be a lot of fun. Even if you're stuck with PF feats a Barbarian Grappler can wrestle just about anything with the 'strength surge' power. A rogue is also really good, because sneak attack affects nearly everything now and you get extra class features. Depending on your groups level of optimization you may love or hate Pathfinder, but it's worth a try if only to cherry-pick houserules.

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Help with a Pathfinder character
« Reply #11 on: January 22, 2009, 03:57:45 PM »
If you can us 3.5 feats a Barbarian can be a lot of fun. Even if you're stuck with PF feats a Barbarian Grappler can wrestle just about anything with the 'strength surge' power. A rogue is also really good, because sneak attack affects nearly everything now and you get extra class features. Depending on your groups level of optimization you may love or hate Pathfinder, but it's worth a try if only to cherry-pick houserules.

Except PF = stab it in the face is your only option. Also, look at the other Rogue nerfs. It's just more Paizil style deception.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

wO-_-OdrOw

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Re: Help with a Pathfinder character
« Reply #12 on: January 22, 2009, 05:08:21 PM »
I think you should start a new thread for flaming PF, if that is your wish, and not post anymore in this one if you can't contribute to his character, Sunic. Not that I think your view of PF is wrong, but this guy was asking if we had any advice about his character, not whether he should play PF or 3.5 or any other game. I'm going to download the PDF again and see if anything looks like fun or if there is some kind of synergy that can be found in this book. Level 15, okay. Can you use PF regional feats/PrC's in the different campaign books? Are you using a 32 pb? Do you know what the rest of your party will look like? Do you know what the setting is?

Edit: What about the web enhancements? Do you have access to those?
« Last Edit: January 22, 2009, 08:11:50 PM by wO-_-OdrOw »
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Help with a Pathfinder character
« Reply #13 on: January 22, 2009, 06:11:24 PM »
I think you should start a new thread for flaming PF, if that is your wish, and not post anymore in this one if you can't contribute to his character, Sunic. Not that I think your view of PF is wrong, but this guy was asking if we had any advice about his character, not whether he should play PF or 3.5 or any other game. I'm going to download the PDF again and see if anything looks like fun or if there is some kind of synergy that can be found in this book. Level 15, okay. Can you use PF regional feats/PrC's in the different campaign books? Are you using a 32 pb? Do you know what the rest of your party will look like? Do you know what the setting is?

Except that I'm not 'flaming' it, I'm pointing out the problems with it. Telling an optimization seeker their current parameters are unworkable and explaining how they can fix that is a perfectly legitimate response. In PF, non casters are even worse, and this is at a level where non casters are lucky to be a blip on the radar as is. In PF, the best you can do with a beatstick is make a gimp Rogue... and Rogues themselves didn't fare so well either.
Smiting Imbeciles since 1985.

If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Midnight_v

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Re: Help with a Pathfinder character
« Reply #14 on: January 22, 2009, 06:53:03 PM »
Hmm... damn. It is tough though... I mean there's only so much paizo to go through.
I second the idea of the "crit-beast". Are yo allowed to use those new playtest feat Bhuman posted?
Shall not Pass is a standstill but cheaper..

Quote
Amusing how original 3.5 is seen to be an upgrade to PF.

Yeah, well such is indicative of their level of fail...  :puke
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wO-_-OdrOw

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Re: Help with a Pathfinder character
« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2009, 09:18:08 PM »
Barbarian 15

Barbarians don't get much better between 11 and 15 so perhaps you would enjoy 4 levels of Fighter, but you'd miss 2 levels of gaining Rage points and the Powerful Blow rage power i's based on your Barbarian level, but I don't think I'd do it.
Plus you get to say "Oh, I'm just a barbarian."

Race: Half-Orc

Stats (Assuming Epic Fantasy Rolls):
Pt-Cost-Final
17-(13)-22 (+3 Level, +2 Race)
11-(1)--11
18-(17)-18
7--(+4)-5   (-2 Race)
10-(0)--12 (+2 Race)
7--(+4)-7

Feats:
(1)  Overhand Chop
(3)  Extra Rage
(5)  Powerattack
(7)  Backswing
(9)  Cleave
(11) Devastating Blow
(13) Toughness
(15) Extra Rage

Your Bread and Butter: Combine Devastating Blow with Powerful Blow aswell as Power Attack and Surprise Accuracy for a very nice swing on something.

Equipment (Assuming 41,000g, just enough for a Ring of Gate!):
Full Plate - If you dumped dex. You lose your speed bonus, which can be regained via Swift Foot,
but you aren't as MAD.
Scythe - I would go with Spell Storing if you have a spellcaster around.
Potions - I realize how bad Potions are, but if this is a one-shot to test the water, I think
they're something to consider.
Enhancement Items - ofc.
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juton

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Re: Help with a Pathfinder character
« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2009, 10:11:23 PM »
Except PF = stab it in the face is your only option. Also, look at the other Rogue nerfs. It's just more Paizil style deception.

I agree that there philosophy for boosting weaker classes is retarded (e.g. Let's let a fighter do +5 to hit and damage at level 20!). I wasn't able to catch where they made Rogue's weaker, sneak attack, evasion and uncanny dodge all seem to work the same.

There are a few things I really like on the book, like the Barbarian's rage points and the Sorcerer's Bloodlines, there great as substitutions for the 3.5 base classes but I wouldn't recommend the book whole cloth. I went through the Classes chapter looking for other examples of not fail but couldn't find any, most of the things they changed either don't make a difference or suck.

Silent Wayfarer

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Re: Help with a Pathfinder character
« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2009, 10:30:54 PM »
Apparently sneak attack is supposed to work on much more things now, according to the design notes in the rogue section. Still, I don't trust the other party members to help me with my flanking or the Dex-denying, so yeah.

Woodrow - thanks for the build; I was looking for advice and you gave me that and more.

Sunic, Midnight_v - thanks for trying to warn me off Paizo (no sarcasm intended). It was food for thought which made me read through the PDF again more carefully.

juton - Iron Heroes had the rage token system for the berserker. For some reason Paizo's barb seems to be trying to imitate that. Granted Iron Heroes was not a perfect game by any means, but I kind of liked their system better.

wO-_-OdrOw

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Re: Help with a Pathfinder character
« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2009, 11:23:02 PM »
If you guys are looking for semi-completed 3.5 fixes, you could try Frank and K's  :p
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Silent Wayfarer

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Re: Help with a Pathfinder character
« Reply #19 on: January 23, 2009, 01:28:16 AM »
I've always been a fan of K's -omicon series; is there a centralized archive of them? How about Frank Trollman's stuff?