Author Topic: optimize rogue3/swash3  (Read 5052 times)

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xeno121

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optimize rogue3/swash3
« on: January 19, 2009, 08:10:38 PM »
I'm currently a catfolk rogue3(wilderness variant)/swashbuckler3 (ECL7) with enough xp to gain 2 more levels.

I got 3 bonus feats from victory points so far.

Feats:
EWP: Elven thinblade/lightblade (one feat) *only feat changeable
TWF
Daring Outlaw
Track(party needed tracker)
Dodge
Mobility
Weapon Finesse(swash3 bonus)

I thought about going assassin, or Invisivle blade, or trapsmith from dungeonscape and maybe some swiftblade levels.

I have 246,285g to spend total(the inherent I purchased aren't final until next session starts.

Their pricing is
+1 2000
+2 8000
+3 18000
+4 32000
+5 50000
You pay for +1 then you can pay for +2(total 10000) then +3(total28000)

BIG NOTE: no single transaction can be over 40k.

Stats
18 STR(+3inherent)
24 DEX(+4 inherent)
18 CON (+2 inherent)
20 INT (+4 inherent)
16 WIS (+1 inherent)
14 CHA (+1 inherent)

Current gear:
+1 Keen elven thinblade
+1 lightblade
+2 Mithral Chainshirt
First off, the Joker is a smooth operator. He is very good at convincing people of things, twisting them to further his goals. This is the guy who turned Harvy Dent into Two Face with a simple Bluff check and ten minutes of RP.

ShneekeyTheLost

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Re: optimize rogue3/swash3
« Reply #1 on: January 19, 2009, 08:55:36 PM »
Dervish?
Mine's been a yard carefully surface-tended, foxes burrowed underground.
<--Warlord CCG, NOT DnD

RobbyPants

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Re: optimize rogue3/swash3
« Reply #2 on: January 19, 2009, 09:46:40 PM »
Invisible Blade doesn't make much sense, because that class uses daggers, unless the DM lets you switch the Weapon Focus feat around.

Since you took Daring Outlaw, I'd suggest something to keep your Sneak Attack progression going.  Simply taking more Swashbuckler isn't a bad idea because you get a full BAB advancement.  If you go this route, you can also take a forth level of Rogue to get Uncanny Dodge (which also gives you +1 BAB).  My standard build for this type of character is Rogue 4/Swashbuckler 16.
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Bozwevial

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Re: optimize rogue3/swash3
« Reply #3 on: January 19, 2009, 11:12:16 PM »
In addition to these suggestions, buy off the LA with some of that spare XP.

NiteCyper

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Re: optimize rogue3/swash3
« Reply #4 on: January 20, 2009, 05:47:22 AM »
http://forum.candlekeep.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=7090
It's not very clear on how you got 24 DEX. Are you not mentioning your ability score bonuses every four levels?
« Last Edit: January 20, 2009, 05:57:42 AM by NiteCyper »
Caveat: I edit my posts, ever and anon after.

xeno121

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Re: optimize rogue3/swash3
« Reply #5 on: January 20, 2009, 10:52:19 AM »
Factotum won't happen,  asked for collar he said "where would you buy it" so no on that.

Dex:  15base+4race+1level+4tome(equivalent to a tome)

I almost want to go assassin and then another death attack granting class after.  Telfshadowlord is out since no forgotten realms is in effect. 

I figure I'll grab +5 weapons, stack armor, +6 stat items, a bunch of scrolls of greater invis, and go to work.

I thought maybe a trapsmith1/swiftblade would synergize well I get spring attack, full BAB some nice defensive options and timestop.

I'm currently between assassin, trapsmith and swash as the next level path. 

I also need gear help regardless of level path.

I think I can get the Death attack DC fairly high.  DC30 at 10 assassin at
ECL17  after items and stat bumps.  After 2 levels DC 20 which is ok but not great.  +1 with the dagger, +2 for ability focus, going to see if I can get a custom item to pierce death protection and add more to the DC(like an upgraded bonus on the dagger.)

First off, the Joker is a smooth operator. He is very good at convincing people of things, twisting them to further his goals. This is the guy who turned Harvy Dent into Two Face with a simple Bluff check and ten minutes of RP.

ShneekeyTheLost

RobbyPants

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Re: optimize rogue3/swash3
« Reply #6 on: January 20, 2009, 11:06:34 AM »
If you can get the DC that high and don't mind having to wait for three rounds to set up, then assassin could be useful.  Do realize that you're losing out on +3 BAB over 10 levels if you were to instead take a full BAB class.

Taking 10 levels of swashbuckler will net you the same amount of Sneak Attack damage as assassin will.  It's a trade off, and you have to think about what you believe will be useful in the game you're in.
My balancing 3.5 compendium
Elemental mage test game

Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
[/spoiler]

xeno121

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Re: optimize rogue3/swash3
« Reply #7 on: January 20, 2009, 11:37:41 AM »
If you can get the DC that high and don't mind having to wait for three rounds to set up, then assassin could be useful.  Do realize that you're losing out on +3 BAB over 10 levels if you were to instead take a full BAB class.

Taking 10 levels of swashbuckler will net you the same amount of Sneak Attack damage as assassin will.  It's a trade off, and you have to think about what you believe will be useful in the game you're in.

I think assassin would work out and the DM would probably be open to nerfing things that block death attack(he houserules a lot and dislikes things that invalidate class abilities) at that point the wizard is throwing phantasmal killers 1/rnd so I think he'd let me bump the DC bypass fortifications etc. Gonna have to check. 

Opinions on blurstrike weapons.  Good or bad?
First off, the Joker is a smooth operator. He is very good at convincing people of things, twisting them to further his goals. This is the guy who turned Harvy Dent into Two Face with a simple Bluff check and ten minutes of RP.

ShneekeyTheLost

ErhnamDJ

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Re: optimize rogue3/swash3
« Reply #8 on: January 20, 2009, 12:07:27 PM »

Where would you buy the collar? Why, you'd go to a wizard and describe the qualities of the shadow-- or perhaps of a renown shadowdancer. Then you'd hand him a tidy sum. He works his magic (hehe) and you get the collar. He gets the dough for a new tower with a portal to wherever he wants.

skydragonknight

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Re: optimize rogue3/swash3
« Reply #9 on: January 20, 2009, 05:03:36 PM »
Swordsage 2 for Assassin's Stance(+2d6 SA), Wis to AC and being able to qualify for the Shadow Blade feat(Dex to damage with some weapons). Your Dex bonus is +7, so that would be like the average of 2 SA dice right there. Plus unlike Str, off-hand weapon will keep full Dex to damage.

Gloves of the Balanced from MIC will get you Virtual ITWF once you have BAB+6, so keep that in mind to save yourself a feat.

For other maneuvers/Stances:
Stances: Island of Blades is nice for getting SA from unusual places. Step of the Wind is nice if you decide you would like to use charging as a tactic, since difficult terrain is not uncommon in dungeons.
Maneuvers(1st/2nd): Cloak of Deception, Sapphire Nightmare Blade, Moment of Perfect Mind, Emerald Razor, Burning Blade, Flashing Sun and Sudden Leap are all good picks depending on what you're going for.
3rd: Shadow Garrote and Fan the Flames are both useful for ranged Death Attacks.
 
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

BowenSilverclaw

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Re: optimize rogue3/swash3
« Reply #10 on: January 20, 2009, 05:05:25 PM »
Swordsage 2 for Assassin's Stance(+2d6 SA), Wis to AC and being able to qualify for the Shadow Blade feat(Dex to damage with some weapons). Your Dex bonus is +7, so that would be like the average of 2 SA dice right there. Plus unlike Str, off-hand weapon will keep full Dex to damage.
And it doesn't replace your Str mod to damage, it's in addition to your Str mod to damage :)

So yeah, Plus Fucking One :D

EDIT: Maybe add in a single level of Barbarian for Pounce and Whirling Frenzy?
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: optimize rogue3/swash3
« Reply #11 on: January 20, 2009, 05:38:32 PM »
Stances: Island of Blades is nice for getting SA from unusual places.
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carnivore

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Re: optimize rogue3/swash3
« Reply #12 on: January 20, 2009, 06:01:01 PM »
Swordsage 2 for Assassin's Stance(+2d6 SA), Wis to AC and being able to qualify for the Shadow Blade feat(Dex to damage with some weapons). Your Dex bonus is +7, so that would be like the average of 2 SA dice right there. Plus unlike Str, off-hand weapon will keep full Dex to damage.
And it doesn't replace your Str mod to damage, it's in addition to your Str mod to damage :)
actually it does Replace Str for damage... notice:
from here: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=3
Quote
Use Dex modifier instead of Str modifier on damage rolls with Shadow Sun weapons

you might be thinking of this:

Swashbuckler Class feature:

Insightful Strikein addition to your Strength modifierElegant Strikein addition to your Strength modifier) with any of the following weapons: Longsword, Rapier, Elven Thinblade, Elven Lightblade, Elven Courtblade, or Scimitar. The foe must be vulnerable to Sneak Attack or Critical Hits to take the extra
damage.


 :D

Bozwevial

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Re: optimize rogue3/swash3
« Reply #13 on: January 20, 2009, 06:02:07 PM »
carnivore, the text of the feat differs from the short entry, and text trumps table. So Shadow Blade works just fine.

carnivore

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Re: optimize rogue3/swash3
« Reply #14 on: January 20, 2009, 06:03:43 PM »
really , i am away from books right now(only had on line resources).... can you post the exact wording.... as i was planning on something similar

 :D


Bozwevial

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Re: optimize rogue3/swash3
« Reply #15 on: January 20, 2009, 06:05:59 PM »
Sure. The text states

Quote
...you can add your Dexterity modifier as a bonus on melee damage for attacks made with the weapon.

xeno121

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Re: optimize rogue3/swash3
« Reply #16 on: January 21, 2009, 12:10:24 AM »
After burning through the 246,285gp I have these, additions/removal suggestions are welcome.

(Switched str and cha around 13str 15base cha+2race=17) for bluff, etc

+1Inherent STR (14)
+2 Inherent DEX (22)
+2 Inherent CON (18)
+4 Inherent INT (20)(skillpoints :D )
+1 Inherent CHA(18)

+6 DEX gloves
+6 Int Headband
+4 CON amulet
Boots of Agile Leaping
Triple Weapon Capsule x2
20 Quickflame,frost,shock
10 ghostblight
5 quicksilver
Belt of ultimate athleticism
+5 Thistledown Padded(RotW) of Healing, Shadow, Silent Moves
+4 vest of resistance
+3 Ring of Protection
Ring of Blink
+3 Assassins Dagger(paid +4 price since the +1 DC added up to be a +1 special ability effectively, going to see if I can improve that aspect)
+2 Warning Dagger


I'm thinking of getting poisons and maybe scrolls of greater Invis.

I'm going to give him my tome of battle and hope he'll let me get swordsage levels. But I'm not going to plan around that.
First off, the Joker is a smooth operator. He is very good at convincing people of things, twisting them to further his goals. This is the guy who turned Harvy Dent into Two Face with a simple Bluff check and ten minutes of RP.

ShneekeyTheLost

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Re: optimize rogue3/swash3
« Reply #17 on: January 21, 2009, 12:46:00 AM »
carnivore, the text of the feat differs from the short entry, and text trumps table. So Shadow Blade works just fine.


I think that's iffy.  The text doesn't contradict the table, in this case; it just doesn't reiterate it.  If the text explicitly said that the Dex mod was in addition to Str, that would be another story.

skydragonknight

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Re: optimize rogue3/swash3
« Reply #18 on: January 21, 2009, 01:17:35 AM »
carnivore, the text of the feat differs from the short entry, and text trumps table. So Shadow Blade works just fine.


I think that's iffy.  The text doesn't contradict the table, in this case; it just doesn't reiterate it.  If the text explicitly said that the Dex mod was in addition to Str, that would be another story.

I think the answer is in the Tome of Battle FAQ, wherever that thread is. IIRC, it is in addition to strength. Oh what the heck I'll actually do the dirty work for a change:
Thread: Tome of Battle Q&A

Quote from: Tob Q&A
Q: The benefit of the Shadow Blade feat as listed on Table 2-1: New Feats (TOB 30) wildly differs from the benefit as listed in the feat entry. Which is correct?
A: In this case, text trumps tables; the Shadow Blade entry is correct. (However, the benefit as listed on the table could be a good feat on its own.)

It's still a Custserv/Sage answer, so take it with a grain of salt. That said:

1. Text trumps table is acknowledged, unless specified otherwise(like in errata).
2. Replacement effects are generally spelled out as such. Weapon Finesse, Slippers of Battledancing, the Thunderlance and Whirling Blade spells...there are so many examples. The only times it's not spelled out but intended to be a replacement effect, they fix it in the errata.
3. There exists errata for ToB, and Shadow Blade wasn't in it.

Summary:
There's DM leeway to rule that it doesn't stack, but that leeway is very small, in my opinion, since that interpretation is inconsistent with the many many existing replacement effects that specifically say they are replacement effects.
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BowenSilverclaw

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Re: optimize rogue3/swash3
« Reply #19 on: January 21, 2009, 06:36:53 AM »
Besides, the 'errata' *cough* is talking about Shadow Sun weapons.

I mean, seriously?


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