Author Topic: Interesting thought about Fusion and Form  (Read 3564 times)

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EjoThims

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Interesting thought about Fusion and Form
« on: January 12, 2009, 09:04:06 PM »
Recently, it came up in a thread that Fusion doesn't seem to specify the form it grants.

And it was brought forward that form was a natural ability and would be included under the 'racial ability' section of things fusion grants you from both creatures.

The problem with this, however, is that I cannot find any rules that state or even imply that form is an ability (if it is an ability, it is indeed a natural ability, that part's not in dispute). In fact, the strongest implication is that form is not an ability, as spells and the like can grant abilities without seeming to grant form.

Now, this topic is interesting to me for two reasons.

Firstly, if form is not an ability, then the form of a fused creature is not discussed in the rules in any way that I can find. This means that, as long as it's reasonable, you could make your fused creature into any form you desired, from as mundane as granting it four arms when fusing two two armed creatures to fusing with a centipede and giving yourself 102 arms and 2 legs but otherwise being entirely bipedal.

Secondly, if form is an ability, any spell which gives you the natural abilities and/or racial abilities of a creature automatically gives you it's form (including size) as well. It also means form (in whole or in part) can potentially be altered by the spell "Trait Removal" from Serpent Kingdoms, as well as others that have similar effects.

What do you all think?

JaronK

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Re: Interesting thought about Fusion and Form
« Reply #1 on: January 12, 2009, 09:08:53 PM »
Well, the ability to manipulate X number of objects with your hands would be a Natural Ability, right?  So number of hands should be an inheareted trait from a natural ability, in a way.  One could get the rest of the form that way.

JaronK

EjoThims

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Re: Interesting thought about Fusion and Form
« Reply #2 on: January 12, 2009, 09:12:47 PM »
Well, the ability to manipulate X number of objects with your hands would be a Natural Ability, right?  So number of hands should be an inheareted trait from a natural ability, in a way.  One could get the rest of the form that way.

JaronK

Ah, but does the ability to use X hands necessitate, per the rules, having that many hands?

Logically, it does not, as it is quite possible to be able to do things normally even if current situations dictate that you cannot (like when you're fused with another creature and your form has, potentially, changed).

Caelic

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Re: Interesting thought about Fusion and Form
« Reply #3 on: January 12, 2009, 11:13:08 PM »

Firstly, if form is not an ability, then the form of a fused creature is not discussed in the rules in any way that I can find.


Good lord.  It's the Uncertainty Principle of D&D. 

Schroedinger's Fused Cat.

EjoThims

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Re: Interesting thought about Fusion and Form
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2009, 06:09:44 PM »
Good lord.  It's the Uncertainty Principle of D&D. 

Schroedinger's Fused Cat.

Well, yea. Unless someone can find something in the rules that supports form as an ability that I'm overlooking (which is entirely possible, as I'm still AFB), then, per the rules, you have no idea what you'll be after having manifested the power; just what you can do, which, but that doesn't necessarily mean your form will be able to.

awaken DM golem

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Re: Interesting thought about Fusion and Form
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2009, 07:21:02 PM »
Jazz musicians would appreciate not being able to know, whether a "cat" was dead or not.
Bird lives !!

So, Fusion is it's very own little niche in the rules ... well Psionics is broken ,  ;) .

Prime32

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Re: Interesting thought about Fusion and Form
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2009, 08:11:46 PM »
These weird fusions remind me of Bo-bobo Bo Bobobo. Watch here.

(They get weirder)
« Last Edit: January 14, 2009, 06:28:42 PM by Prime32 »
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BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Interesting thought about Fusion and Form
« Reply #7 on: January 14, 2009, 05:56:43 PM »
I prefer Shin Chan :p

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Re: Interesting thought about Fusion and Form
« Reply #8 on: January 15, 2009, 10:35:44 AM »
The problem with this, however, is that I cannot find any rules that state or even imply that form is an ability (if it is an ability, it is indeed a natural ability, that part's not in dispute). In fact, the strongest implication is that form is not an ability, as spells and the like can grant abilities without seeming to grant form.
Quote from: Alter self
You acquire the physical qualities of the new form while retaining your own mind. Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.
Emphasis mine. This seems to imply even further that physical qualities are not abilities.

More later, busy now.

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Caelic

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Re: Interesting thought about Fusion and Form
« Reply #9 on: January 15, 2009, 12:02:32 PM »

Emphasis mine. This seems to imply even further that physical qualities are not abilities.

More later, busy now.


It also goes a long way towards establishing that form is a physical quality, and hence is acquired--most of the aspects of form are covered here.

EjoThims

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Re: Interesting thought about Fusion and Form
« Reply #10 on: January 15, 2009, 05:37:17 PM »
It also goes a long way towards establishing that form is a physical quality, and hence is acquired--most of the aspects of form are covered here.

Alter Form indeed establishes that form is a physical quality. But are physical qualities or even special qualities also abilities?

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Interesting thought about Fusion and Form
« Reply #11 on: January 15, 2009, 05:40:22 PM »
Well, if you read ANYTHING I've written on the subject (over and over and over), then you'll note that anything that isn't Su, Ps, or Sp is either Ex or Natural, and that anything that is a result of one's physical form and qualities that isn't specified as Ex is Natural.

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EjoThims

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Re: Interesting thought about Fusion and Form
« Reply #12 on: January 15, 2009, 05:58:28 PM »
But maybe I'm just  :banghead

You are.

Because it's not about whether it's natural or not.

It's about whether or not it's an ability.

There's a very big difference in the two points.

Sinfire Titan

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Re: Interesting thought about Fusion and Form
« Reply #13 on: January 15, 2009, 06:07:42 PM »
Quote from: Fusion
Physical qualities include natural size, mundane movement capabilities (such as burrowing, climbing, walking, swimming, and flight with wings, to a maximum speed of 120 feet for flying or 60 feet for nonflying movement), natural armor bonus, natural weapons (such as claws, bite, and so on), racial skill bonuses, racial bonus feats, and any gross physical qualities (presence or absence of wings, number of extremities, and so forth). A body with extra limbs does not allow you to make more attacks (or more advantageous two-weapon attacks) than normal.

That's the key portion. It all depends on how the DM interprets the word "Normal". If he deems that word as applying to your race, then Fusion has a bit more balance (unless your base race has 8 arms naturally, in which case there's a bigger problem than Fusion here). If he deems it applies to the race you are merging with, then have a fucking ball with it.

It also leaves out spellcasting and such. It spells out what you gain very neatly (although the argument that it doesn't mention what happens to those abilities can be made).


[spoiler][/spoiler]

EjoThims

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Re: Interesting thought about Fusion and Form
« Reply #14 on: January 15, 2009, 06:26:06 PM »
SiFir, I can't find that group of text listed in the fusion entry on the SRD. I believe you grabbed the Alter Self text by mistake?

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Re: Interesting thought about Fusion and Form
« Reply #15 on: January 15, 2009, 06:56:53 PM »
It also goes a long way towards establishing that form is a physical quality, and hence is acquired--most of the aspects of form are covered here.

Alter Form indeed establishes that form is a physical quality. But are physical qualities or even special qualities also abilities?
Um, yes

Many creatures have unusual abilities. A monster entry breaks these abilities into special attacks and special qualities
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Re: Interesting thought about Fusion and Form
« Reply #16 on: January 15, 2009, 06:58:18 PM »
SiFir, I can't find that group of text listed in the fusion entry on the SRD. I believe you grabbed the Alter Self text by mistake?

My bad, I thought Sunif quoted Fusion. I missed the part where is says "Alter Self" in the quote.


This proves something: I'm illiterate.


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EjoThims

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Re: Interesting thought about Fusion and Form
« Reply #17 on: January 16, 2009, 08:33:31 AM »
Um, yes

Many creatures have unusual abilities. A monster entry breaks these abilities into special attacks and special qualities

I hate trying to find anything in the SRD. Being AFB like this makes me sad. Special qualities are abilities (I had recalled such, but without being able to find it I wasn't sure enough to go with it), but that entry makes no mention of qualities other than 'special,' so it doesn't set in stone that physical qualities are abilities.

Now we all we have to do is somehow bridge the gap, find something that links physical qualities to special qualities, or even straight to abilities.

And then the Fusion power will actually make sense.  :D