Author Topic: Changeling focused specialist - doable or sheer lunacy?  (Read 8005 times)

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Runestar

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Changeling focused specialist - doable or sheer lunacy?
« on: May 22, 2008, 12:33:45 PM »
It started as a simple experiment as to how many schools I could have my wizard ban. It somehow led to me contemplating the viability of a changeling wizard with the dual-specialization sub (races of eberron) and the focused specialist variant from complete mage (this combination is possible, right?).

At first glance, the drawbacks seem extremely heinous. 4 banned schools. Considering that I cannot choose transmutation, illusion or divination, that leaves abjuration, conjuration, enchantment, evocation and necromancy (5 choose 4 - what a choice... :eh). That is a huge chunk of spells I will never be able to access.

On the plus side, I get 3 specialist spell slots for each spell lv, which I can use to memorize either an illusion or a transmutation spell. Each of these 2 schools are fairly strong contenders in their own right, and it seems like the best of both worlds to be able to access both more freely.

So is this a viable method of playing, or have I simply maimed one foot, then proceeded to shoot myself in the other leg? :D
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Changeling focused specialist - doable or sheer lunacy?
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2008, 12:37:01 PM »
Well evocation sucks of course. Enchantment gets screwed by the many 'immune to mind affectings'.

Conjuration is arguably the best single school all around.

Abjuration gives all sorts of nice buffs, dispels, and others.

Necromancy = save or dies, save or sucks in some cases, and many others.

I believe your last sentence to be correct.
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Stratovarius

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Re: Changeling focused specialist - doable or sheer lunacy?
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2008, 12:40:36 PM »
I think I have to agree with Sunic, but it would surely be amusing to see in combat as well. It also might not be as badly off as people think, given that the Beguiler is running mostly on Enchantment, Illusion, and Divination and manages to be a good class.

Given a good build, I'd think it breaks down into two statements:

1) That it is still a viable, if not overly powerful, character to play.
2) A less restricted wizard would do it better.
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ninjarabbit

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Re: Changeling focused specialist - doable or sheer lunacy?
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2008, 01:35:09 PM »
I think it is veray doable. As long as you can still cast transmutation, conjuration, and illusion spells you'll be quite alright.

RobbyPants

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Re: Changeling focused specialist - doable or sheer lunacy?
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2008, 01:35:53 PM »
I agree with the above two.

If I'm making a specialist, it's almost always a no-brainer for me to dump Evocation and Enchantment.  The only time I deviate from that is if the flavor of the character dictates otherwise.

If I have to dump a 3rd school, it gets tough.  My next front-runners tend to be Illusion, Necromancy, and Abjuration.  Losing Abjuration gets rid of Dispel Magic which can suck, but it might be doable, espescially if you have other casters in the party.  Illusion isn't a viable choice for you, and it's tough to drop if you want to mimic some Evocations.  Necromancy has some awesome debuffs, but I could see dropping it as well.

I don't think I would ever consider dropping Conjuration or Transmutation.

My general suggestion would not to do it (the combination you posted) unless you think you'll have fun with it.  Too tough in my opinion.
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DaveTheMagicWeasel

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Re: Changeling focused specialist - doable or sheer lunacy?
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2008, 01:49:18 PM »
Yeah, Conj, Illu, Trans and Div should be fine imo.

Losing Abjuration is a little painful, but there's plenty of defensive Trans and Illusion spells.

If you go for Wiz 4 / Sorc 1 / Ultimate Magus it's definitely worth it, and if you can get double benefits from Master Specialist then that's good too.

RobbyPants

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Re: Changeling focused specialist - doable or sheer lunacy?
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2008, 02:33:56 PM »
Agreed that those would be the four I'd pick if I had to lose four schools.  Hopefully, you'll lose the least ability that way.

Luckily Conjuration + Transmutation = at least 80% of awesome spells on the wizard list.
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Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
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Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
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I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
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When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
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Agita

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Re: Changeling focused specialist - doable or sheer lunacy?
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2008, 03:41:50 PM »
I don't have RoE sadly, but based on the ability's name and the combination with Focused Specialist, I think I have a pretty good idea of what it does.
Personally, I think it's a mix of doable and sheer lunacy. If executed well, it may work and be a lot of fun at that. If not... yeah.
As for Ultimate Magus, I prefer Beguiler over Sorcerer. It has a smaller and more specialized spell list, but it eliminates MAD (And it fits the changeling flavor). However, I feel the Ultimate Magus is best for metamagic-heavy debuffer builds (Twinned Split Empowered Enervation anyone?). Further, Focused Specialists (And dual-focused specialists if they do what I think they do) often already have more spells than they have hit points, although some extra overkill never hurts.
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Re: Changeling focused specialist - doable or sheer lunacy?
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2008, 03:55:45 PM »
If you're allowed to use racial emulation to go into Shadowcraft Mage...
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Re: Changeling focused specialist - doable or sheer lunacy?
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2008, 04:05:34 PM »
The reason I suggested Sorc Ultimate Magus was to get back the spells you lost from prohibited schools.

Normally I'll concede the Beguiler is better.

Agita

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Re: Changeling focused specialist - doable or sheer lunacy?
« Reply #10 on: May 23, 2008, 07:41:05 AM »
The reason I suggested Sorc Ultimate Magus was to get back the spells you lost from prohibited schools.

Normally I'll concede the Beguiler is better.
Oh, true. Yeah, then Sorcerer is certainly an option.
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Runestar

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Re: Changeling focused specialist - doable or sheer lunacy?
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2008, 08:04:51 AM »
On a side note, what is everyone's impression of the changeling specialist wizard substitution? At first glance, it looks like a very cool concept (specializing in 2 schools?), but I am wondering if it is a trap in disguise (much like monkey grip). You effectively give up 3 schools, for the ability to memorize either an illusion or transmutation spell in your bonus slots. Seems rather lackluster, once the novelty of dual-specialization wore off.

Morphic familiar is interesting, but has a tough time competing with the other variant features you could be swapping out a familiar for...

Also, what are some tips for playing a focused transmuter? The few wizards I played usually used a few spells from a variety of schools, so I am not sure how to fully exploit the strengths of a single school or 2. Treantmonk fleshed out his conjurer rather extensively, I am wondering if anyone can do the same for transmutation as well? I have read CantripN's guide, but it seemed a little skimpy. :)
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Shadeseraph

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Re: Changeling focused specialist - doable or sheer lunacy?
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2008, 08:44:23 AM »
Usually a transmuter is a buffer/debuffer specialist. It has a lot of SoS spells, some of the bests SoD (no immunity for you, thanks), and some of the most powerful buffs, like the "bite of" series of spells, and the polymorph series. Also, you can find a lot of utility spells in that school, like fly or disintegrate. You can do some BC with the utility spells, but usually that's not the use a transmuter see, except for one or two spells.

So, you have two/three ways to play a transmuter:

1) Play like a cleric. That's a gish. Use all your buffs to improve your own combat prowess. cast bite of the werebear, greater blink and the likes, polymorph into an hydra, and use wraithstrike to hit your enemies easily. Or any of the other classical uses for buffs.

2) Use the buffs in your group. Way more benefical for the group, as many buffs will be more effective on your fellow warrior than they are on you. This can turn to be somewhat boring, mind you. The main thing you'll do here will be re-casting  the buffs on your friends.

3) be a SoS/SoD specialist. Flesh to Stone, Slow, and the likes.

Of course, as a focused specialist you can do both 2 and 3, making the combat enjoyable while cooperating with the party. Illusion here works wonders as a complement.

Well, I may be wrong, but that's my experience as a transmuter. Self-buffing usually works better on "real" gishes, but you may do it even if you are not one. In general, transmutation is weaker than conjuration in the low levels, but surpases it on the higher ones.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2008, 08:49:17 AM by Shadeseraph »
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Stratovarius

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Re: Changeling focused specialist - doable or sheer lunacy?
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2008, 08:46:43 AM »
How would a Master Specialist class interact with the dual-specialist? Would you get two bonus features at each level? It would be interesting to see a ruling on that.
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Re: Changeling focused specialist - doable or sheer lunacy?
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2008, 09:45:44 AM »
Yeah, Conj, Illu, Trans and Div should be fine imo.

Losing Abjuration is a little painful, but there's plenty of defensive Trans and Illusion spells.

If you go for Wiz 4 / Sorc 1 / Ultimate Magus it's definitely worth it, and if you can get double benefits from Master Specialist then that's good too.

I agree.  I find 90% of the spells my wizards cast are conjuration or transmutation.  A wizard that keeps both schools will have options.

Extra castings are always good.

Now - lets discuss progression: Wizard into Incatatrix into Red wizard? :lol
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Re: Changeling focused specialist - doable or sheer lunacy?
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2008, 10:05:52 AM »
Can't lose Abjuration in that case though...

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Runestar

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Re: Changeling focused specialist - doable or sheer lunacy?
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2008, 10:13:25 AM »
Quote
Now - lets discuss progression: Wizard into Incatatrix into Red wizard?

The 3.5 red wizard really got nerfed bad. As per a literal reading of the schools to ban (and disregarding the example which contradicts this), a non-diviner specialist has to ban an extra 2 schools. For example, an abjurer red wizard would have to ban 4 schools. Depending on your interpretation on how it interacts with focused specialist, that would be 5 schools banned. Throw in incantatrix and that is 6 schools (which is the max, since you can't ban divination or your own specialized school).

I suppose that is as extreme as we can get. :lol
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RobbyPants

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Re: Changeling focused specialist - doable or sheer lunacy?
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2008, 10:34:16 AM »
Ouch.  And I thought banning four schools was a sacrifice!  :o
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Quotes
[spoiler]
Quote from: Cafiend
It is a shame stupidity isn't painful.
Quote from: StormKnight
Totally true.  Historians believe that most past civilizations would have endured for centuries longer if they had successfully determined Batman's alignment.
Quote from: Grand Theft Otto
Why are so many posts on the board the equivalent of " Dear Dr. Crotch, I keep punching myself in the crotch, and my groin hurts... what should I do? How can I make my groin stop hurting?"
Quote from: CryoSilver
I suggest carving "Don't be a dick" into him with a knife.  A dull, rusty knife.  A dull, rusty, bent, flaming knife.
Quote from: Seerow
Fluffy: It's over Steve! I've got the high ground!
Steve: You underestimate my power!
Fluffy: Don't try it, Steve!
Steve: *charges*
Fluffy: *three critical strikes*
Steve: ****
Quote from: claypigeons
I don't even stat out commoners. Commoner = corpse that just isn't a zombie. Yet.
Quote from: CryoSilver
When I think "Old Testament Boots of Peace" I think of a paladin curb-stomping an orc and screaming "Your death brings peace to this land!"
Quote from: Orville_Oaksong
Buy a small country. Or Pelor. Both are good investments.
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Surreal

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Re: Changeling focused specialist - doable or sheer lunacy?
« Reply #18 on: May 29, 2008, 04:01:40 PM »
Changeling Focused Specialist/Master Specialist/Shadowcraft Mage/Recaster

Racial emulation for SCM, maybe the gnome wizard 5 sub level, maybe hang on to enchantment just so we can dip Mindbender... meh?
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Lists of Stuff - listing of class features etc and how to get them, etc. sort of like above but a little more specific and sorted by category
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Changeling focused specialist - doable or sheer lunacy?
« Reply #19 on: May 29, 2008, 06:59:25 PM »
Quote
Now - lets discuss progression: Wizard into Incatatrix into Red wizard?

The 3.5 red wizard really got nerfed bad. As per a literal reading of the schools to ban (and disregarding the example which contradicts this), a non-diviner specialist has to ban an extra 2 schools. For example, an abjurer red wizard would have to ban 4 schools. Depending on your interpretation on how it interacts with focused specialist, that would be 5 schools banned. Throw in incantatrix and that is 6 schools (which is the max, since you can't ban divination or your own specialized school).

I suppose that is as extreme as we can get. :lol
Now fit in 3 levels of Shadowcraft Mage, and this is actually totally playable. :clap
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