Author Topic: I need to scare the SHIT out of my DM.  (Read 5744 times)

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SorO_Lost

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Re: I need to scare the SHIT out of my DM.
« Reply #20 on: December 29, 2008, 06:41:55 PM »
I thought it would be funny as hell.  :D
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[spoiler]Tiers break down into who has spellcasting more than anything else due to spells being better than anything else in the game.
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tsuyoshikentsu

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Re: I need to scare the SHIT out of my DM.
« Reply #21 on: December 29, 2008, 07:05:33 PM »
Supermount is Core+Complete.
Anyway, this cake is great!  It's so delicious and moist.

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Lycanthromancer

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shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: I need to scare the SHIT out of my DM.
« Reply #23 on: December 29, 2008, 07:57:19 PM »
I thought Supermount was one of those things that used Bloodline cheese. UA is not Core + Completes.
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[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Kuroimaken

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Re: I need to scare the SHIT out of my DM.
« Reply #24 on: December 29, 2008, 08:22:10 PM »
You want to scare your DM shitless?

Why, yes, you ARE pulling all of this out of your ass.

I said I want to scare the shit out of him, not spelunk after it.

Hmmm. Maybe by optimizing Intimidate.
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For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

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Sunic_Flames

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Re: I need to scare the SHIT out of my DM.
« Reply #25 on: December 29, 2008, 08:25:49 PM »
I would say Imperious Command that shit, then I remembered that isn't Core + Completes. No Tarrasque auto cower for you. :/
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If you hear this music, run.

And don't forget:


There is no greater contribution than Hi Welcome.

Huge amounts of people are fuckwits. That doesn't mean that fuckwit is a valid lifestyle.

IP proofing and avoiding being CAPed OR - how to make characters relevant in the long term.

Friends don't let friends be Short Bus Hobos.

[spoiler]
Sunic may be more abrasive than sandpaper coated in chainsaws (not that its a bad thing, he really does know what he's talking about), but just posting in this thread without warning and telling him he's an asshole which, if you knew his past experiences on WotC and Paizo is flat-out uncalled for. Never mind the insults (which are clearly 4Chan-level childish). You say people like Sunic are the bane of the internet? Try looking at your own post and telling me you are better than him.

Here's a fun fact: You aren't. By a few leagues.
[/spoiler]

Caelic

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Re: I need to scare the SHIT out of my DM.
« Reply #26 on: December 29, 2008, 09:08:21 PM »
I thought Supermount was one of those things that used Bloodline cheese. UA is not Core + Completes.


Nope.  Someone might have gone ahead and ADDED bloodline stuff, but my original build requires nothing but Core, Complete Adventurer (Devoted Tracker and Beastmaster), and Complete Warrior (Halfling Outrider).

Now, if you want the deluxe version--the halfling gallavanting down the hall on the back of a baby gold dragon that could crush ancient Wyrms--you need to toss in Draconomicon.  It's not needed for the basic build, though.

Chemus

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Re: I need to scare the SHIT out of my DM.
« Reply #27 on: December 29, 2008, 10:19:14 PM »
While I'm all for open play, it's possible that the DM is unfamiliar with or dislikes the flavor of, Psionics and Maneuvers/Stances. Does he even have those books? Maybe he's looking to challenge you in your character crafting abilities? If he's said that these are overpowered or whatever, then yes, he could stand to be shown the error of his ways.

As far as how to scare him straight, try having the entire party playing fighters and monks and paladins (oh, my!)

They're also brokenated; the wrong way mind you, but they're less than functional classes against equivalent CR stuff. Play them right and they will still die.

Anyway, if you're looking for optimization that makes him reconsider ToB, XPsi and SpC bannage, lowballing to show that for melee ToB is much better (I'm not familiar w/ it, but that's me), and then showing that most of the broken spells already exist in Core (+Completes) might get you most of what you are looking for.
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Kuroimaken

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Re: I need to scare the SHIT out of my DM.
« Reply #28 on: December 29, 2008, 11:51:45 PM »
Quote
While I'm all for open play, it's possible that the DM is unfamiliar with or dislikes the flavor of, Psionics and Maneuvers/Stances. Does he even have those books? Maybe he's looking to challenge you in your character crafting abilities? If he's said that these are overpowered or whatever, then yes, he could stand to be shown the error of his ways.

This actually came up because I'm playing a Binder and I'm using the extra vestiges found outside ToM. Some of them happen to be psionic, and apparently there's a huge need to curtail my borked abilities. He's familiar with both systems, and it's not a matter of flavor. He just doesn't want to deal with those.

Mind you, the guy does have a considerable knowledge of the system, but it's hardly complete (not that I'm claiming mine is either; he just has some misgivings about stuff, such as saying that metamagic'ing the crap out of damage spells make casters viciously overpowered in Epic Level - when it's obviously the rest of the dirty tricks they have up their sleeves). He also has extensive houserules on buffs, Power Attack/Charge multipliers etc.. He does have the best of intentions, but he's going about things all wrong, dammit. (It doesn't help he has such a big ego that he thinks he can rebalance 3.5 pre- and post-epic by himself... while nerfing melee types based off the freaking FRENZIED BERSERKER as a baseline for comparison.)
Quote
Anyway, if you're looking for optimization that makes him reconsider ToB, XPsi and SpC bannage, lowballing to show that for melee ToB is much better (I'm not familiar w/ it, but that's me), and then showing that most of the broken spells already exist in Core (+Completes) might get you most of what you are looking for.

If I recall correctly, his problem with ToB is that, quote, "maneuvers and stances are nothing more than giving melee types spells in disguise" (never you mind that the effects they get are vastly weaker compared to the shit casters get...). Showing him that ToB characters can do melee better than Core meleers probably won't help.

Frankly, I've considered ditching the guy and looking for another group, but they're incredibly rare where I live, and the guy DOES tell good stories - it's just that he can get VERY wonky where mechanics are concerned.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

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Endarire

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Re: I need to scare the SHIT out of my DM.
« Reply #29 on: December 30, 2008, 12:57:41 AM »
Melee Guy: "I can do over a thousand damage a round!"
Wizard casts grease.
Melee Guy drops his weapon.

Even in core, a well-built wizard can handle almost any situation.  Even a level 3 wizard has alter self (Troglodyte), mage armor, shield, and mirror image.  That oughta boost your AC to 26 and make you nearly invincible in the normal AC department.

At higher levels, things get sillier.  If the wizard is worth his INT, he'll ready an action to cast a negating spell.  When Melee Guy is about to enter range, cast wall of force to prevent him and have your contingency of dimension door handy.
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Dumb-Age Master

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Re: I need to scare the SHIT out of my DM.
« Reply #30 on: December 30, 2008, 01:02:59 AM »
Make an entire story based character, then. Use bluff. Use diplomacy. Pull out all those neat little RP yet also mechanic based moments in which you make the DM sit back and let you do what you want to. Optimize this to begin messing with the only "good" part of the game and then offer to give it up in exchange for a ToB character.

If the DM actually cares about the game, he will give in. The DM only cares about having what I like to call a "DM masturbation-fest" in which he wants every moment to go his way, he will give in. Regardless of said DMs intentions, alignment, etc, so long as he is as invested in the story as you say he is, you -will- win this battle.

Of course, this is all assuming that you don't mind temporarily forgoing the best part of the game in exchange for combat options at a later date.

As in: Have nothing now so you have everything later.

Akalsaris

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Re: I need to scare the SHIT out of my DM.
« Reply #31 on: December 30, 2008, 01:20:37 AM »
Besides pointing out how borked core and completes can be (and frankly, most of that can be eliminated by banning pure casters, as crazy as it sounds), it might be worth pointing out how "non-borked" the banned books are.  Especially if you're creating a character to excel at a party role instead of rock out in combat - like an artificer whose role is the knowledge skills, finding traps, and buffing the party, instead of a crazy double-wand wielding unholy terror.

Besides that, point out to your DM that just like most wizards don't abuse polymorph all the time, you won't ruin the party's fun by abusing Time Stands Still or girallon arms or whatever.  Yeah, they give spells to melee characters, but it makes the game more fun, damn it.  Make him think of crusaders as clerics if it helps him deal with it.  One of the DMs I play with has the same objections to ToB (he also hates the flavor as being "weeaboo" despite not having read the book), and it pisses me off.

Caelic

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Re: I need to scare the SHIT out of my DM.
« Reply #32 on: December 30, 2008, 02:39:07 PM »
The thing that baffles me about the SC ruling is this: most of the broken spells in SC were from the Completes, and they fixed them in the SC.

So...Spikes is allowed in Complete Divine form, but not in SC form?  Surge of Fortune is less broken than the SC?

That's the problem with blanket bans--"balanced" and "not balanced" aren't neatly sorted into different books.

Kuroimaken

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Re: I need to scare the SHIT out of my DM.
« Reply #33 on: December 30, 2008, 02:51:30 PM »
The thing that baffles me about the SC ruling is this: most of the broken spells in SC were from the Completes, and they fixed them in the SC.

So...Spikes is allowed in Complete Divine form, but not in SC form?  Surge of Fortune is less broken than the SC?

That's the problem with blanket bans--"balanced" and "not balanced" aren't neatly sorted into different books.

Agreed. It's the biggest beef I have with his approach.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


BowenSilverclaw

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Re: I need to scare the SHIT out of my DM.
« Reply #34 on: December 30, 2008, 04:57:11 PM »
Just in case, have you tried sitting down with him and discussing the matter calmly in a 'out of game' way?
Maybe showing several threads here and over on 339 explaining the real broken stuff in 3.5 and disproving knee-jerk reactions?

You probably tried that already, but I figured I'd mention it just in case, it would mean you wouldn't have to reduce him to a crying wreck over the course of a campaign spanning several weeks/months ;)


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Kuroimaken

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Re: I need to scare the SHIT out of my DM.
« Reply #35 on: December 30, 2008, 10:16:30 PM »
Just in case, have you tried sitting down with him and discussing the matter calmly in a 'out of game' way?
Maybe showing several threads here and over on 339 explaining the real broken stuff in 3.5 and disproving knee-jerk reactions?

You probably tried that already, but I figured I'd mention it just in case, it would mean you wouldn't have to reduce him to a crying wreck over the course of a campaign spanning several weeks/months ;)


~Bowen

I did, actually. I plan on trying harder, among other things because I have a rep in my group as a "powergamer" (supposedly because I frequent these forums) and because it'd be easier to make him pissed off than making him cry.
Gendou Ikari is basically Gregory House in Kaminashades. This is FACT.

For proof, look here:

http://www.layoutjelly.com/image_27/gendo_ikari/

[SPOILER]
Which Final Fantasy Character Are You?
Final Fantasy 7
My Unitarian Jihad Name is: Brother Katana of Enlightenment.
Get yours.[/SPOILER]

I HAVE BROKEN THE 69 INTERNETS BARRIER!


Caelic

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Re: I need to scare the SHIT out of my DM.
« Reply #36 on: December 30, 2008, 10:26:56 PM »
One convention that's worked very well for our group is the "Wish List."  Our campaigns generally start with Core; each player then has a "wish list."  For each level of character experience, they can introduce one new element (feat, spell, prestige class, etc.)  from a currently-unapproved book.

This gives the players some say on what's included in the campaign, and allows the DM time to carefully evaluate such elements before admitting them into the campaign.

Note that this doesn't work particularly well for new classes, particularly new classes with alternate mechanics; being able to play a Warblade doesn't matter much if you don't have access to any maneuvers!  Usually, if a substantial alternate mechanics system is going to be used at all (ToB, psionics, etc.) it's best to decide that at the start of the game and allow it as part of the core rules for that campaign.