dragon PC races

[Surreal]

Copied over from my thread on 339...

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I was browsing through Dragons of Faerun earlier today and noticed that the Mercury/Steel/Mist wyrmlings all have low hd (3 or 4) and LA+2. They also have some nice movement modes (Mercury is insane for speed with a 200' perfect flight), good stats, and a few good special abilities (Steel gets alternate form, Mist gets gaseous form). I think this actually puts them into the realm of playable races, even starting at ecl 5-6.

Looking around briefly, the White wyrmling and Sapphire wyrmling have near the same hd/LA, but their stats and abilities are not as good. The pseudodragon gets mention for blindsense and telepathy and reasonably good stats, but unfortunately has 2hd and LA+3 (why couldn't it be the other way?).

Are there any other good dragons out there? And what can be done with them?

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will update list later with more info...
DoF - Dragons of Faerun
Dcn - Draconomicon
MoF - Monsters of Faerun
MoI - Magic of Incarnum

Ambush Drake (online; MM3) 7HD/0LA medium - debatable about the LA

Brass (MM) 4HD/2LA tiny - breath weapon: sleep

Brown (MoF) 6HD/2LA medium - tremorsense 500' (it's a bit high for ECL, but yikes that's a powerful tremorsense)

Copper (MM) 5HD/2LA tiny - immune acid, spider climb, breath weapon: slow

Crested Felldrake (MM2) 2HD/2LA small - scent, no flight

Deep (Drow of the Underdark) 6HD/3LA tiny - burrow, detect magic, true seeing, immune to charms

Faerie (Dcn) 8HD/2LA small - decent SLAs, breath weapon: daze, can be advanced in HD/size without changing LA

Fang (Dcn) 3HD/3LA tiny - bite: ability drain, increased damage, trip, sound imitation, detect/read magic

Incarnum (MoI) 4HD/2LA tiny - Meldshaping (Soulborn list)

Mercury (DoF) 3HD/2LA tiny - high speed (200' perfect flight!), apply the Shadow template for 300'

Mist (DoF) 3HD/2LA tiny - gaseous form

Pseudodragon (MM) 2HD/3LA tiny - telepathy, blindsense, spell resistance

Rattelyr (Shining South) 2HD/2LA tiny - immune to fire, resist elec 20, no flight, burrow 60', no breath weapon, strong fear ability, tremorsense 60'

Sand (Sandstorm) 3HD/2LA tiny - Immunity to Fire, 20' burrow, Tremorsense 60 ft.

Sapphire (MM2) 5HD/2LA tiny - breath weapon: sonic & causes panic (not listed as mind or fear effect), all four movement modes, the only psionic dragon with low LA on this list

Shadow (Dcn) 4HD/3LA tiny - breath weapon: energy drain

Silver (MM) 7HD/4LA small - alternate form, breath weapon: paralyze

Spiked Felldrake (Dcn) 6HD/2LA large - very good mount (at Paladin -6), can be advanced in HD/size without changing LA

Spire (Sharn: City of Towers) 2HD/2LA tiny - evasion, blindsense 60', flight, breath weapon = fog cloud, high dex

Steel (DoF) 4HD/2LA small - alternate form, 1st level arcane casting (with access to divine plus a couple domains)

Tome (Dragon Magazine #343) 3HD/5LA - 3rd level arcane casting (knows all sorcerer divination/conjuration spells and knowledge domain)

White (MM) 3HD/2LA tiny - has all four movement modes

Other stuff
Feats from Dragons of Eberron (p.15)
- Alternate Form: gain alternate form Su ability
- Half-Dragon Form: use alternate form to become a humanoid with the half-dragon template applied
- Hidden Strength: higher stats while in alternate form

Spells from Dragons of Eberron (p.15)
- Strength of the True Form (Sor 1, transmutation) : gain NA, DR and stats of your original form while in an alternate/polymorph form

Alternate dragon features from Dragons of Eberron (p.30) - most trade away clerical spells
- Child of Eberron: learn Druidic, class skills: survival, cast druid spells
- Flame of the Forge: CL+2 for crafting, class skills: craft & UMD, a few more spells known, retain essense like an artificer
- Fortune's Fang: spells from cleric and feast, luck and trickery domains, class skills: bluff & disguise
- Guide of the Weak: spells from cleric and community and protection domain, class skills: diplomacy & intimidate
- Lightkeeper: divine aura as a cleric, take Extra Turning to gain turning as a cleric 4/day, spells from cleric and glory, law, sun and war
- Loredrake: effective sorcerer level +2, reduces hit dice to d10s
- Master of the Hoard: spells from cleric and charm, commerce and travel domains, class skills: appraise, diplomacy, sense motive
- Passion's Flame: gain rage, spells from cleric and madness and passion, class skills: perform
- Stalking Wyrm: gain favored enemies, bonus feat Track, spells from Cleric and air, animal and earth domains, class skills: hide, move silently, survival
- Wyrm of War: proficient with all simple & martial weapon, and all armor and shields, bonus feat every 4 hd, treat sorcerer level as initiator level and trade spell slots for maneuvers/stances from Tiger Claw

Races of the Dragon - see this quote from p.4

Dragons automatically qualify for any classes, prestige classes, racial substitution levels, feats, powers or spells that require the dragonblood subtype.

- depending how you read that, this could mean you automatically qualify for anything requiring the dragonblood subtype simply by virtue of being a true dragon, allowing you to ignore other prereqs
- Singer of Concordance (RotD, p.91) - any true dragon can enter immediately, and it progresses casting fully

[Surreal]

reserved in case I need it

edit: just for fun (assuming no LA buyback) - Steel 6/Crusader or Warblade 1/Abjurant Champion 3/Jade Phoenix Mage 10
- BAB 18, initiator 14, sorcerer 12 (14 with loredrake), nothing even remotely game breaking but it could be fun
- AbjCh is strictly unnecessary, but you need full arcane advancement there to qualify for JPM (a touch of mindbender is ever so popular)
- using the Wyrm of War archetype, initiator level is... 26? I have no idea how that'll stack

[BowenSilverclaw]

Ah, nice to see this one ported over
Kudos, Surreal

[Rebel7284]

Hmr, with LA buyoff, some of them are semi-playable.  If you're in a long campaign, gaining age categories skews the math doesn't it?

[BowenSilverclaw]

There are rules in the Draconomicon for using Dragons as PCs, including using PC classes, you need to gain a Dragon HD every couple of years, but still, it's doable...

And let's not forget it's damn awesome

EDIT: Edited to fix fuck-up

[Negative Zero]

Do the natural effective sorcerer levels of dragons stack with class levels in sorcerer?

[Emy]

Do the natural effective sorcerer levels of dragons stack with class levels in sorcerer?

Yes.

I've been messing around with this Wyrmling Steel Dragon Abjurant Champion gish build:
Steel Dragon HD 4/Sorcerer 2/Abjurant Champion 4/Unseen Seer 8/Spelldancer 2
with Level Adjustment Buyoff, the Loredrake archetype, the Stalwart Sorcerer ACF, and the Dragonblood Sorcerer substitution level (because I didn't want to deal with having a familiar)

Unseen Seer is there to hit 15 BAB by level 18 to take Improved Rapidstrike (Claws). I don't know how useful this actually is, compared with... say... spellcasting, but it looks nice at least. It's already very feat-tight as is. But hey, ability to persist (tons if Sheltered Vitality is available). Make sure he has a divine spellcaster buddy for Sheltered Vitality and Lesser Restoration, Gishy McSteel could cast this on himself if he didn't take loredrake, but then he'd only get level 8 spells. Moving Spelldancer 1 up a level and Unseen Seer 8 back to 19 could be good. Then Advanced Learning could grab Choose Destiny. Which gets persisted. HELLS YES.

 - Highlights - BAB +16, casts as Sorcerer 19, Spelldance for metamagic without slot adjustment, a couple of off-list Divination spells, only one spell known of 9th level

I'd like to make a few comments as well:

Sovereign Archetypes¹ (such as the ever-useful Loredrake) remove a dragon's ability to cast cleric and domain spells as arcane spells, if they have any.

Dragons with innate spellcasting abilities do not need material components, though they do need foci.²

There are rules in the Draconomicon for using Dragons as PCs, including using PC classes, you need to gain a Dragon HD every couple of levels,

As noted by Rebel7284, this only matters if it's a long campaign. They have to take a dragon HD or level adjustment as indicated on the table every few years, not every few levels. Sadly, you can't not advance dragon HD as you can with bloodlines. With bloodlines not taking a level carries a penalty, but as a dragon it's simply not an option.

If you can manage the LA buyoff, Loredrake, and don't take more than 1 dragon HD, and only take full casting classes, 9th level spells are possible for a Steel.

Sadly, kobolds are better at everything than dragons are. (They're even better at being dragons  )

¹ Dragons of Eberron, page 30
² Draconomicon, page 24

edit: this just reminded me of a fun thread I should post. I'll do it when I get back from getting food.

[Surreal]

I know Loredrake gets all the attention, but some of those other Archetypes are quite good. I've summarized them in my first post.

A few of those almost beg for certain builds... the Child of Eberron for example is another interesting (not necessarily good...) way to enter Fochlucan Lyrist, and Wyrm of War has all sorts of fun potential, but I have no idea how those initiator levels will stack once you throw in Jade Phoenix Mage. I threw up a quick sample build in the second post.

[BowenSilverclaw]

There are rules in the Draconomicon for using Dragons as PCs, including using PC classes, you need to gain a Dragon HD every couple of levels,

As noted by Rebel7284, this only matters if it's a long campaign. They have to take a dragon HD or level adjustment as indicated on the table every few years, not every few levels.

Aye, my bad

[Emy]

I think that Initiator Level of 24 (for Wyrm of War maneuvers. IL 10 for Warblade or Crusader) would be right, assuming you add your Jade Phoenix Mage martial progression to your Wyrm of War maneuvers. 12 (effective sorcerer level) + 10 (jade pheonix progression) + 2 (half of your non-martial adept levels*)

* counting the non-martial adept levels as: 3 of the Dragon HD, since the first grants spellcasting. The Warblade or Crusader level.

Abjurant Champion increases spellcasting, so it counts as a Wyrm of War martial adept class for adding 1/2 of the other levels, same with JPM and the first Dragon HD.

This is confusing as hell though, and there are probably at least three ways to adjudicate how the Initiator Level progression works.

[woodenbandman]

'scuse me where is wyrm of war, is it draconomicon?

[Surreal]

It's on p.30 of Dragons of Eberron... y'know, sort of like I mentioned on the first post... *cough*

edit: and with that funny JPM build and assuming favourable stacking, while you'd only be able to trade in spell slots for 6th level maneuvers, I think you could still pick up 9th level with the bonus maneuvers granted by JPM.

[Runestar]

It's on p.30 of Dragons of Eberron... y'know, sort of like I mentioned on the first post... *cough* Big Grin

It is not exactly very well publicized. Heck, in all the time I have owned DoE, I only just realized that such a variant exists after reading about it on this thread, and only because woodenbandman pointed it out...

[Emy]

Am I reading this right? It looks like Wyrm of War is either proficiencies and bonus feats or tiger claw maneuvers and stances.

Edit: build stub:

Steel Dragon 4/Level Adjustment 2/Wilder 4/Fighter 4/Telflammar Shadowlord 4/Crusader 1/Psychic Warrior 1

Robilar's + Opportunity Power + Dissipating Touch + Shadow Pounce for full attack on AoO
Expansion + Rapidstrike (+imp.) + Multiattack (+imp.) for better full attacks
Thicket of Blades for more AoOs

problems: lots of attacks, but poor damage. regaining psionic focus for metapsionics.

edit #2:

I'd really like to try to build something other than a steel dragon, but tiny size is rather limiting for noncasters, and for casters, the steel's built in casting is quite good... and it's not like dragons can go into Blade Bravo.

[DavidWL]

Emy, you are reading it right, and I was going to say, that Wyrm of war for the 4-5 bonus feats is also a good trade for 2 levels of sorcerer spellcating (if you're not going to be a full caster anyway).

Steel Dragon wardrake(feat) example =>
Dragon 4/ LA + 2/Fighter 14
- like a fighter, but with 2 extra feats, polymorph, 1st level casting, and flight (and 2 less BAB / HD).  Not optimal, but definitely decent when compared to fighter 20.

reserved in case I need it

edit: just for fun (assuming no LA buyback) - Steel 6/Crusader or Warblade 1/Abjurant Champion 3/Jade Phoenix Mage 10
- BAB 18, initiator 14, sorcerer 12 (14 with loredrake), nothing even remotely game breaking but it could be fun
- AbjCh is strictly unnecessary, but you need full arcane advancement there to qualify for JPM (a touch of mindbender is ever so popular)
- using the Wyrm of War archetype, initiator level is... 26? I have no idea how that'll stack

With LA buyoff and 2 extra levels of abjurant champion, and Wyrm of War(feats), the above becomes:

• BAB 20
• 5 bonus fighter feats
• Initiator 15
• Sorcerer = 14 (CL = 20)
• flight, alternate form, etc.

Which is pretty awesome.  5 extra fighter feats in a gish build beats (I think) 2 extra CL (assuming your enough behind your caster counterparts)?.

Best,
David

EDIT: 
Actually, if we list out the benefits of a dragon:

• blindsense 60', darkvision,
• immunity to sleep / paralysis, dragon type (resistant to some spells, extra advantage from some spells).
• flight ~150' !

And the benefits of a Steel Dragon (or comparable for any of the others which are good with +2 LA - particularly Mercury):

• alternate form 5 times per day!
• +2 CON, +2 CHA, +3 NA
• 1 Sorcerer* CL

If we add Lore drake or Wyrm of War =>

• +2 Sorcerer CL or
• + 4-5 feats

That really is worth +2LA.  Just keep in mind that you can't be a Full caster, and you're fine.  (Assuming the +2 LA).

[DavidWL]

edit #2:

I'd really like to try to build something other than a steel dragon, but tiny size is rather limiting for noncasters, and for casters, the steel's built in casting is quite good... and it's not like dragons can go into Blade Bravo.

I was thinking that a mercury dragon Wyrm of War(feats) with underfoot combat and confound the big folk would be sort of fun.

[Emy]

{cut for size}

With LA buyoff and 2 extra levels of abjurant champion, and Wyrm of War(feats), the above becomes:

• BAB 20
• 5 bonus fighter feats
• Initiator 15
• Sorcerer = 14 (CL = 20)
• flight, alternate form, etc.

Which is pretty awesome.  5 extra fighter feats in a gish build beats (I think) 2 extra CL (assuming your enough behind your caster counterparts)?.

Best,
David

EDIT: 
Actually, if we list out the benefits of a dragon:

• blindsense 60', darkvision,
• immunity to sleep / paralysis, dragon type (resistant to some spells, extra advantage from some spells).
• flight ~150' !

And the benefits of a Steel Dragon (or comparable for any of the others which are good with +2 LA):

• alternate form 5 times per day!
• +2 CON, +2 CHA, +3 NA
• 1 Sorcerer* CL

If we add Lore drake or Wyrm of War =>

• +2 Sorcerer CL or
• + 4-5 feats

That really is worth +2LA.  Just keep in mind that you can't be a Full caster, and you're fine.  (Assuming the +2 LA).

I'd like to note that fighter bonus feat choices aren't the only options there. It's that or "any combat-related feat tied to draconic abilities". And yeah, LA buyoff is really attractive with all these +2 LA dragon races.

Rapidstrike, Improved Rapidstrike or Great Flyby Attack are all perfectly reasonable and fit quite neatly within that broad category.

edit #2:

I'd really like to try to build something other than a steel dragon, but tiny size is rather limiting for noncasters, and for casters, the steel's built in casting is quite good... and it's not like dragons can go into Blade Bravo.

I was thinking that a mercury dragon Wyrm of War(feats) with underfoot combat and confound the big folk would be sort of fun.

Yeah, I took a look at the "I may be Tiny, but you're dead" thread, but it looked like Blade Bravo was very important to the build. Its core, basically.

Also the Mercury dragon's main selling point is mobility. You lose that if you enter an opponent's square and stay there for Confound the Big Folk. Knee Striker may work if you move through their square one turn (involves entering it), then come back with a pounce on the next turn. I haven't really thought about it enough, honestly. If you manage to make it workable, I'll give you angry propellers.

[DavidWL]

You are right about the feat choices including dragon feats.  Wow, great flyby attack is just brutal.  Make a build that optimizes single-attack damage, and go to town.

As an aside, a Mercury Dragon 3/Sorcerer 1 is vaguely equivalent to a Steel Dragon 4.

Blade Bravo wasn't really that essential - it's biggest effect was to add ~+6 AC. 

Best,
David

EDIT: Another variant:

Steel Dragon 4 /Warblade 1 /Abjurant Champion 5 /Swiftblade 10
with Wyrm of War(feat) option

• BAB = 20
• Sorcerer 12 (CL 20)
• 5 bonus feats (1 spent on combat casting)
• Swiftblade goodness

[Emy]

You are right about the feat choices including dragon feats.  Wow, great flyby attack is just brutal.  Make a build that optimizes single-attack damage, and go to town.

Given how easily Steels qualify for gish prestige classes like Abjurant Champion, Arcane Strike would be a really nice combo with Great Flyby Attack.

As an aside, a Mercury Dragon 3/Sorcerer 1 is vaguely equivalent to a Steel Dragon 4.

With 1 less BAB, no ability to cast cleric spells as sorcerer spells, and no Alternate Form. Sorcerer is really a loss here. Without the racial casting ability there's not really a reason to go into Sorcerer (I mean, there is still Loredrake, but...). With a 3/5/7 progression casting class, and level adjustment buyoff, a Mercury could get 9th level spells in a non-sorcerer full casting class. That opens up (for example) Mercury 3/Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 4/Contemplative 6/Dweomerkeeper 4.

edit: Lawful NEUTRAL in the church of mystra, pick up rebuking through Lightkeeper archetype, turning through Cleric. Spend your day in persistent AMF w/Initiate of Mystra

Blade Bravo wasn't really that essential - it's biggest effect was to add ~+6 AC. 

Best,
David

Hm, I guess that's true... is there a way to gain a racial dodge bonus vs. giants to get Titan Fighting?

I just thought "oh god, how did I forget about Stoneblessed?!", but then I looked it up, and it's for Giants, Humanoids, or Monsterous Humanoids only. 

As an aside: Half-Dragon Form doesn't look too bad. Use it to turn into a Half-Dragon Flind Gnoll, then Alter Self back into a small dragon. You lose some stuff, but your physical stats are set to STR 24, DEX 12, and CON 16. It could be useful somehow. If you need to carry heavy things,?

[DavidWL]

Given how easily Steels qualify for gish prestige classes like Abjurant Champion, Arcane Strike would be a really nice combo with Great Flyby Attack.

Yes.  You can even stack the Arcane Wrath of the Jade Phoenix Mage (which you might have anyway) - although there are probably better ways to add damage to "one" attack.

With 1 less BAB, no ability to cast cleric spells as sorcerer spells, and no Alternate Form. Sorcerer is really a loss here. Without the racial casting ability there's not really a reason to go into Sorcerer (I mean, there is still Loredrake, but...). With a 3/5/7 progression casting class, and level adjustment buyoff, a Mercury could get 9th level spells in a non-sorcerer full casting class. That opens up (for example) Mercury 3/Cleric 3/Church Inquisitor 4/Contemplative 6/Dweomerkeeper 4.

edit: Lawful NEUTRAL in the church of mystra, pick up rebuking through Lightkeeper archetype, turning through Cleric. Spend your day in persistent AMF w/Initiate of Mystra

I completely agree with your sentiment that the primary point of the Mercury dragon is that it isn't "forced" to spend one HD to get  a level of casting.  That said, any of the above builds with the steel dragon could be done (almost) as well with the Mercury dragon.  Below is a build that really is better with the Mercury Dragon:

If we compare a Crusader 2/Swordsage 1/Monk 1/Cleric/Ruby Knight Vindicator 10/Master of Nine 5 (classes not quite taken in that order) to:
IL = 18
BAB = 15
CL = 9

A mercury dragon 3 (Wyrm of War)/Crusader 2/Swordsage 1/Monk 1/Cleric 1/Ruby Knight Vidicator 7/Master of Nine 5
IL = 17
BAB = 15
CL = 6
5 bonus feats

However, my main point is that the builds should take advantage of the dragon's strengths, instead of being builds that a human could do better.

Hm, I guess that's true... is there a way to gain a racial dodge bonus vs. giants to get Titan Fighting?

I don't know this, but I suspect that alter self (or some spell in the polymorph school) would give it.

Best,
David