Optimizing Lady Vol (Eberron).

[Sunic_Flames]

By canon, Vol is a half dragon Wizard 16 Lich if I recall correctly. Since she really needs 9th level spells I'm going to add 1 or 2, but likely not more than that.

So now the first questions I run into:

If you had around 15 centuries to do nothing but consolidate your forces and build up your defenses what would your fortress be like?

How in the Nine Hells do you get immunity to spells that would normally be I win buttons like Maze and such?

In spite of the rather suboptimal templates how to make this fight suitably epic for a party around level 16-17? As in worthy of this theme.

[BowenSilverclaw]

Obviously prestige out after Wizard 5, possibly something like Wiz 5/Mindbender 1/Incantatrix 10/Fatespinner 1-2...

Fortress would obviously be hidden and trapped with nasties, probably stuff that doesn't really affect any undead minions but will make life miserable for the PCs (anything targeting Fort/Con, Uttercold Assault-like shenanigans etc.)

These are the rather obvious things ofcourse, I'll post more when I think of more stuff and I'm sober

[woodenbandman]

Make her a walker in the waste, that there will give you 2 lost caster levels rather than 5 because as someone on these boards pointed out, you don't assume the level adjustment of a template you gain through classes.

[ChristopherGroves]

First, is she allowed to take things from other sources?

Second, does she have nearly limitless $ befitting of her position, or is she going to be capped by player wealth restrictions?

Third, remember she's not *JUST* a half-dragon elf lich if you want her to be more.  For instance:
 - Libris Mortis - evolved undead ... several times here ...
 - etc.


Things to consider
---------------------
 - Sorcerer instead of Wizard.  Fits the dragon-bit.
 - Bosses are easy because the party simply concentrates fire.  What if instead of one big 18th level caster there were ... say ... one 18th and three 16th level opponents?  Maybe all half-dragons?  

[Sunic_Flames]

Obviously prestige out after Wizard 5, possibly something like Wiz 5/Mindbender 1/Incantatrix 10/Fatespinner 1-2...

Fortress would obviously be hidden and trapped with nasties, probably stuff that doesn't really affect any undead minions but will make life miserable for the PCs (anything targeting Fort/Con, Uttercold Assault-like shenanigans etc.)

These are the rather obvious things ofcourse, I'll post more when I think of more stuff and I'm sober

Indeed. When I say Wizard in this case I was thinking of casting ability. She needs to be at least as capable as the party Wizard, especially since there's also an Artificer, a Cleric, and a Favored Soul involved.

If I recall correctly Vol operates somewhere around Lhaazar, is that right? What other canon information is available on this?

I know Incantrix is awesome but forget which one of the Better Forgotten Realms books it's in.

I also looked at Fatespinner, but it's not striking me as exceptionally useful. Best I can see coming out of it is the 1/day reroll and the +4 DC to a single save. Which is certainly nice, but save lowering effects do about the same thing under fewer limitations. Maybe I'm missing something.

The Mindbender dip does allow for Mindsight without missing anything. So that's cool. Not many skill points required either.

Also upon further reflection I realized something. Even if we ignore the fact most of the half dragon and lich stuff is overpriced, redundant, and obsolete 17 class levels + those = CR 21. If the party has gotten this far they've fought a lot of CR 20 stuff and a few things higher than that. I peg the next highest around 22 or 23.

So I revise my original post. 20 levels of arcane casting. Is there a Wizard parallel for Spell Immunity to deal with those no save, SR: Yes effects?

Pseudo edit: Walker in the Waste is a good idea. I was considering this for a different opponent, but upon further reflection I couldn't think of a way to make it fit in. Though those 4 CRs from templates are annoying, especially when most of the benefits clearly do nothing.

Anything from a book I have is potentially fair game. So throw WotC material at me and we'll see what we can do with it.

Cash wise... she definitely has a literal fuckton of resources. See, I do WBL as combat effectiveness. One of the PCs has what essentially amounted to a Gygax trapped area accordingly because making her house VERY secure does not impact combat effectiveness. So of course I'm going to design along a similar line. As for her personal wealth (combat effectiveness) she will likely have much higher than normal NPC wealth. Possibly PC wealth, or even higher.

Evolved undead isn't worth losing caster levels. Sorcerers are inferior to Wizards.

There will be lots of minions involved. I'm just covering Vol herself for the time being. An 18th and 3 16ths would likely last two rounds against this party at their current levels (all casters are 15). By the time they actually got there... I underestimated, and need to up the ante.

[woodenbandman]

It really depends on the application of the sorceror. If you don't need her very long (she dies), then a sorceror might be better, because you might not need that many high level spells (I never needed anything but Gate and Shapechange). A sorceror is strictly less versatile than a wizard, but a sorceror might not provide any less of a challenge in the context of an enemy boss type.

[Sunic_Flames]

Let's see... Vol is an elf. It never says what kind of elf.

So if she were a grey elf she'd have a starting array of -2/+2/-2/+2/0/0. Normally Con penalties are made of Fail, but undead don't care.

Now add Half dragon and Lich.

Half dragon:

+6/+2/0/+4/0/+2.

Lich:

+6/+2/-/+6/+2/+4.

If I instead went the dry lich approach (which requires divine casting, doesn't it?) it'd look like this:

+8/+2/-/+4/+4/+4.

So I figure she has Int 24, and that's before adding on 5 level up points, 5 inherent, and a stat item. Int 40. Ouch. I think her spells will be rather nasty, don't you?

[skydragonknight]

If you had around 15 centuries to do nothing but consolidate your forces and build up your defenses what would your fortress be like?

How in the Nine Hells do you get immunity to spells that would normally be I win buttons like Maze and such?

Simulacrums for both. You walk into a room with 10 of her, and True Seeing doesn't help, since they're all real. Which one do you Maze? I Win buttons tend to be single-targeted.
Also have 2-3 Simulacrums counterspelling with an optimized Dispel check for good measure.

[woodenbandman]

If it does require divine caster, just go Archivist. In fact, do that anyway. Every spell ever FTW.

[Sunic_Flames]

If you had around 15 centuries to do nothing but consolidate your forces and build up your defenses what would your fortress be like?

How in the Nine Hells do you get immunity to spells that would normally be I win buttons like Maze and such?

Simulacrums for both. You walk into a room with 10 of her, and True Seeing doesn't help, since they're all real. Which one do you Maze? I Win buttons tend to be single-targeted.
Also have 2-3 Simulacrums counterspelling with an optimized Dispel check for good measure.

Good point, though since they're made of 'ice and snow' and require a Disguise check you could still see through it right?

Archivists are cool, but not really familiar with them, and the fact they have actual class features makes PRCing less of a no brainer.

[BowenSilverclaw]

Obviously prestige out after Wizard 5, possibly something like Wiz 5/Mindbender 1/Incantatrix 10/Fatespinner 1-2...

Fortress would obviously be hidden and trapped with nasties, probably stuff that doesn't really affect any undead minions but will make life miserable for the PCs (anything targeting Fort/Con, Uttercold Assault-like shenanigans etc.)

These are the rather obvious things ofcourse, I'll post more when I think of more stuff and I'm sober

Indeed. When I say Wizard in this case I was thinking of casting ability. She needs to be at least as capable as the party Wizard, especially since there's also an Artificer, a Cleric, and a Favored Soul involved.

All properly optimized? Nice...

If I recall correctly Vol operates somewhere around Lhaazar, is that right? What other canon information is available on this?

According to the Eberron Campaign setting, page 186, Vol operates from the frozen island of Farlnen, in the halls of Illmarrow Castle, among the ice-laden peaks of the Fingerbone Mountains (in the north of the Lhazaar Principalities).
That's the only Eberron book I have.

I know Incantrix is awesome but forget which one of the Better Forgotten Realms books it's in.

Player's Guide to Faerun, enjoy

I also looked at Fatespinner, but it's not striking me as exceptionally useful. Best I can see coming out of it is the 1/day reroll and the +4 DC to a single save. Which is certainly nice, but save lowering effects do about the same thing under fewer limitations. Maybe I'm missing something.

No, you're not, it's just my default choice for capping Wizard builds.

The Mindbender dip does allow for Mindsight without missing anything. So that's cool. Not many skill points required either.

Extra senses are always nice

Also upon further reflection I realized something. Even if we ignore the fact most of the half dragon and lich stuff is overpriced, redundant, and obsolete 17 class levels + those = CR 21. If the party has gotten this far they've fought a lot of CR 20 stuff and a few things higher than that. I peg the next highest around 22 or 23.

So I revise my original post. 20 levels of arcane casting. Is there a Wizard parallel for Spell Immunity to deal with those no save, SR: Yes effects?

Immunity to whatever effects they inflict or take 2 levels or Wyrm Wizard (Dragon Magic) to add Spell Immunity to your spell list?

Pseudo edit: Walker in the Waste is a good idea. I was considering this for a different opponent, but upon further reflection I couldn't think of a way to make it fit in. Though those 4 CRs from templates are annoying, especially when most of the benefits clearly do nothing.

Anything from a book I have is potentially fair game. So throw WotC material at me and we'll see what we can do with it.

Cash wise... she definitely has a literal fuckton of resources. See, I do WBL as combat effectiveness. One of the PCs has what essentially amounted to a Gygax trapped area accordingly because making her house VERY secure does not impact combat effectiveness. So of course I'm going to design along a similar line. As for her personal wealth (combat effectiveness) she will likely have much higher than normal NPC wealth. Possibly PC wealth, or even higher.

Evolved undead isn't worth losing caster levels. Sorcerers are inferior to Wizards.

There will be lots of minions involved. I'm just covering Vol herself for the time being. An 18th and 3 16ths would likely last two rounds against this party at their current levels (all casters are 15). By the time they actually got there... I underestimated, and need to up the ante.

Good luck


~Bowen

[Sunic_Flames]

Not entirely optimized, but definitely practically optimized. If it weren't for that whole undead thing Vol would be taking DC 35 save or dies or thereabouts.

Ice laden you say? Perfect, that fits right with my waste reflavoring even if I don't use that on her.

Incantrix kicks a lot more ass than I remember it kicking.

Wyrm Wizard 2 = Greater Spell Immunity. Win.

Though it doesn't fit as well, I wonder how an Initiate build would compare?

[skydragonknight]

Oh. I thought of a possible answer to some of the "I Win" buttons: Craft Contingent Spell.
Ray Deflection is a must. Your Fortitude save will be abysmal and Rod-maximized Split Rayed Disintigrate is a threat(two chances to take 240 damage?). It might not be what your players would do, but as it's one of the most useful spells vs. undead and that's one of the things that I in their situation would try, although perhaps as my second spell and not my first(which would be Maze )

[BowenSilverclaw]

I figured those are part of your standard counter-measures as a mage

[skydragonknight]

Sorry about the double post, but one more thought crossed my mind and I don't plan to be on the boards much until much later thing.

Check out Spell Turrets(DMG 2). It casts 4 spells of the same level 4 turns in a row and then repairs itself in the 5th turn and repeats the cycle. (moot, but included for completeness).
The 4 spells have to all be of different schools and they use item-based DCs(read: they suck if they use DC).
They target the nearest creature, although they can be programmed to recognize and not target. Oh, and if they're attack roll spells, you can increase the attack roll just be upping the price to craft, with no limit.

9th level I would probably go with: (+1 metamagic) Maze, Shades(Maze; works 80% of the time on a will save), Energy Drain/Mass Harm and (+1 Metamagic) Polar Ray: couldn't think of anything good here.

[Sunic_Flames]

Oh. I thought of a possible answer to some of the "I Win" buttons: Craft Contingent Spell.
Ray Deflection is a must. Your Fortitude save will be abysmal and Rod-maximized Split Rayed Disintigrate is a threat(two chances to take 240 damage?). It might not be what your players would do, but as it's one of the most useful spells vs. undead and that's one of the things that I in their situation would try, although perhaps as my second spell and not my first(which would be Maze )

I assume the Craft Contingent would be for Plane Shift or something?

Where are the rules to increase the attack roll of the spell turrets?

[BowenSilverclaw]

Should be in DMG2, since that's the only book featuring Spell Turrets...

[Sunic_Flames]

Should be in DMG2, since that's the only book featuring Spell Turrets...

Which doesn't say anything about what the attack roll is at all.

[BowenSilverclaw]

Nothing with the normal trap rules in the DMG or DMG2 either?
I wouldn't know, I hardly ever use traps and don't have my books at hand at the moment...

[Rebel7284]

I assume the Craft Contingent would be for Plane Shift or something?

The beauty behind craft contingent is that there are many many contingencies you can set up.  Sure planeshift can be one of them.