First off, "Paizil" is the dumbest fucking thing ever. Come on, if you can't make a creative insult, don't bother. It's the equivilant of using dollar signs to spell "Microsoft," only possibly even nerdier. It doesn't make them look bad, it just declares to the world that you're shitty at trying to make fun of people. It's also hilariously grognardy.
Uncreative insults for uncreative people.
Sunic, I know this request is difficult (and maybe even impossible), but please,
stop being an idiot.
Hi Welcome
GFY.
Anything
useful you would like to add? If not...
I'm pretty sure you two agree then, since he's saying it's not worth the money because, while it's better than 3.5 (strictly speaking) in several ways, the steps backward in a lot of the details (like Power Attack and Improved Trip) counter the improvements in the chassis, and besides creating enough new problems to counteract the ones they solved, they didn't even solve all the problems in 3.5. Maybe I'm wrong, but the two of you seem to be saying the same thing, if I'm reading your posts right.
Yeah, I don't think he read my post 
Pathfinder as a base chassis is better then 3.5's base chassis in a few ways (though not in as many ways as it could be), and the actual core game is slightly more melee friendly. However, 3.5 isn't just a core game, and the millisecond you include anything outside of the PHB from 3.5, Pathfinder falls out the window.
They learned from some of the mistakes in 3.5 Core...but didn't learn anything from the post-3.5 Core materials.
Also please do not for a single second think that anyone actually uses grognard to talk about a veteran or old soldier. Come on, now.
Maneuvers - streamlined (by effectively removing them from the game via making them suck too badly to be used)!
Classes - all the classes that sucked suck more, and all the classes that rocked rock harder!
Feats - nerfed for weak classes, unchanged for strong classes.
Spells - there's still save or loses at every level, so spellcasters still dominate.
Meleeing - still a losing proposition, except that all the things that mitigate this suck are not in!
I'm pretty sure you two agree then, since he's saying it's not worth the money because, while it's better than 3.5 (strictly speaking) in several ways, the steps backward in a lot of the details (like Power Attack and Improved Trip) counter the improvements in the chassis, and besides creating enough new problems to counteract the ones they solved, they didn't even solve all the problems in 3.5. Maybe I'm wrong, but the two of you seem to be saying the same thing, if I'm reading your posts right.
Yeah, I don't think he read my post
It was a page of nonsensical drivel mashed between two layers of idiocy. You bring up things that Pathfinder does better, when frankly Pathfinder doesn't do ANYTHING better. They nerfed BARDS for fuck's sake. Who the fuck thought that BARDS were too strong? Wizards still win the fucking game at every level. Their skill system makes class skills utterly meaningless, and as a result marginalizes that aspect of class balance (another not-insubstantial nerf to Bards and Rogues). Combat Manuever shit is a joke. How hard is it, really, to roll a Strength check?
They learned how to make fucktons of money by whoring out a franchise. The only way what they're doing is different from what WotC is doing is that they're whoring out a franchise they don't actually own, which I must admit is a little impressive.
But XCodes! Math is HARD! And we can't have them beatsticks holding up play while they decide what to PA for? Oh, by the way, check out our Words of Power system! Creating new spells mid game couldn't possibly slow down play!
Epic necro Sunic, nearly 2 years.
I don't hate Pathfinder, and I don't hate the posters on the Paizo boards, not even the very dumb ones. I think we should jettison the term 'Paizil', there are good gamers on the Paizo boards and bad posters on every board, and we want these boards to welcome them when they are ready to take the next step in optimization.
My feelings to Pathfinder though is disappointment, with the APG there was the opportunity to put in a stealth fix for the weaker classes (Monk I'm looking at you) that wasn't followed through on. But I think Buhlman is intentionally trying to put out watered down material so he can cash in on 3.5's moldering corpse, which is probably the savviest thing he can do, I don't know why I was surprised.
What I find more perturbing is that there is no other contender to carry on 3.5's crown. Frank and K's Tomes have a lot of good ideas but are balanced at a power level I think is well above most games. Bad Axe games put out an also ran called Trailblazer, which, while interesting in some ways was pretty much dead on arrival.
Paizil only refers to the stereotypical sorts though. It's possible to be on the Paizo boards and not be a Paizil. It simply requires you to be intelligent, and capable of performing basic math. As an example, Cirno is not a Paizil.
It is also worthy of mention at this point that on average, the number of 3.5 games on MW is about double the number of 4th edition and Pathfailure games combined. Even this late into the product lifecycle. For both of the newer games. Seems most people are just waiting for 5th edition to fix things, and if it doesn't? Well, so much for D&D.
Ok the line where Pathfinder doesn't do anything better is bullshit. It may do some things worse but it doesn't do everything worse. Monks and core Bards suck in 3.5, they suck in Pathfinder too, if they suck in different ways it's not better or worse, if you make a change to an unusable option and it stays unusable you haven't made it any worse. I hate the chorus that pathfinder buffed the Wizard at lower levels, you'd have to be crazy to trade Glitterdust and Solid Fog for a few extra HP in core. Druids, likewise got nerfed with what they did to Wildshape. Of the big three Clerics got the smallest nerf with what they did too Turning and how they lost heavy armour proficiency. I've debunked the claim that the CMB system means a trip fighter trips less often, they trip more often. The skill system means that a fighter isn't a moron for putting ranks into UMD, and traits let classes add class skills, so the skill system isn't worse.
I'd take a core 3.5 Bard over a core Pathfailure Bard. Look at the song mechanics again.
Glitterdust was nerfed in an entirely meaningless way, it's just a smokescreen so they can claim casters are weaker. Haven't looked at Solid Fog, but don't expect anything better. All the Wild Shape nerf means is that in 3.5, there were viable core only melees and in Pathfailure, there aren't. That's it. Auto attacking for HP damage is in every way inferior to casting spells, so when a Druid takes the CoDzilla approach and starts beating things up as a tiger
he's playing nice. Then Pathfailure tells him to stop holding back, and he says ok and starts summoning Angels. Ride that BMX bitch, ride it!
Turn attempts were only ever good for divine feats anyways. And you can still do that. AC is still meaningless, so yeah.
So Pathfinder is a big vat of 3.5 copypasta, a few small 'tweaks', a few things they broke and a mess of random changes. To most players it's going to be a very similar game experience to 3.5, so to them Pathfinder hasn't broken 3.5. In fact tonight, somewhere there's probably more than a few gaming groups getting together and enjoying it. So lets dial back the vitriol, the problem with Pathfinder is that it hasn't fixed the most obvious glaring holes in 3.5, so while it isn't horrendous it is pretty much unnecessary.
Pathfailure is the Monk of the game design world. A lot of minor pointless shit, a lot of fail, no actual substance. And a bunch of people who rabidly lie about it and claim it's the best thing ever and can beat anything. You aren't doing that, but the Paizils sure are.
Also, people are playing it is an invalid argument. Somewhere out there, there's probably some people playing FATAL. Doesn't make it a good system. It just means masochism exists as a concept.
As it is, the personal house rules I made around... two years ago or more, left alone, and then revised a bit more recently are better than anything Pathfailure has done, in every way. And I wasn't trying to go for any sort of professional publishing here. I was just fixing the balance in 3.5.
I also stole from Saga before Pathfailure did, so yeah.
