Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?

[Sunic_Flames]

The main flaw is ya know... the monster just walks around. If any more explanation is required you aren't paying attention.

[Sinfire Titan]

Personally?  I thought we were just messing around.  You know  not 

Hard to tell really. Rereading this thread for the 6th time does show that you have a slice of sarcasm in your posts, but Sunic's on a rantpage.

If any of the stuff I said was taken personally I apologize - I was just playing along with the tone.  I certainly didn't take anything personally.  ST is and always will be ST.  We don't have a history, or at least a bad one.

I think people are reading more into this than was intended.  After this post, I'll let ST respond - and I'll back off.

When did I come up in this again? The past 4 pages have me a little off-balance, so if this is in response to my post (or any of the Paizo posts I've made in the Logic Fail threads) please let me know so I can defend my points.

Actually I remember posts by LN defending 4e before it was ever released.  What he saw he liked, he thought worked well, and thought people should lay off (he was one of the selected CO's)

Problem is that sometimes you read something and get one impression - then you play and get another.  I had to play 4e to realize I didn't like it as much as 3.5.  I expect LN did too.  Knowing your shit and knowing how something will work in gameplay.  WotC did it wrong either way.  They seriously need some outsider to come in and clean up.

He wasn't the only one defending 4E before it was released. I made a thread about it on Gleemax a while ago, and looked at it with an open mind (and found I didn't like what it did to the classes when I actually started playing it).

Lol, what?

Democratic and asking for feedback is different.  Asking for feedback merely gives you more ideas to pick from - asking for a vote takes the power away from you to decide entirely - and as you have already pointed out - you end up with the lowest common denominator.

True. I won't argue this point. I would like to post my PoV on the issue though. WotC asked for responses on what in 3.5 needed to be fixed. Paizo on the other hand, asked people for a little aid on Pathfinder then proceeded to ignore a large number of helpful posts. WotC also ignored a large number of people's complaints and statements (mostly due to the sheer number of them), but at least had the decency to look into a handful of problems.

Then explain your argument.  By the way ST - it actually is possible for two intellegent people to disagree without one of them suddenly becoming retarded.  It is perfectly acceptable for intellegent people to hold different opinions and be unable to find common ground.  Miscommunication is also possible.

Your post suggested to me that you felt fighters were worthless - and shame on them for not seeing that.  If I misunderstood - then explain.

I believe you mean SF, as his screenname has no "T" in it. If he's who you've been refering to in your previous posts, then I've been misreading and you're slightly off-target with your abreviations.

I worked with a lady who came to work beaten up by her husband like every 2 to 3 weeks.  I never met the guy myself - but I witnessed him being an Asshole.  I have no need to interact with an asshole to know what they are - once I see them in action, it removes any desire I have for social interaction.  Assholes make themselves known through their actions.

Sunic's common response to people disagreeing with him is to call them idiots, so please keep that in mind when debating with him. We've all seen his posts, we know he insults people a lot to get them irritated so they can't argue straight.

Frank Trollman's threads are not something I've avoided reading - I've simply avoided commenting because I know if I disagree he'll act like a prick - as he does to anyone who disagrees.  Whatever.  He's perfectly welcome to be a prick - it's a public forum.  However - choosing not to be the target of his asshattedness doesn't mean he isn't one - or somehow - I needed to be his victim to know he victimizes.

I've never read the Tomes he's produced unless a player asks me to for a game, largly due to a disposition I have with other people's homebrew material (very little homebrew is balanced for everyone's campaigns, seeing as house rules may unbalance entire classes that were intended to fix something, which is why I only rarely allow outside sources that I haven't commented on). From what I understand about Frank, most of his fixes involve turning the game into Rocket Tag. I know it's bad to judge someone's work on other's opinions alone, but I also know that Rocket Tag takes careful control from the DM to make it enjoyable. If the DM has to get involved with that much of his power then I feel that the fix doesn't work right.

Mind you, most of my fixes are geared towards bringing everyone up to a set point on the totem-pole, so take what I say with a grain of salt.

He thinks contribution gives the right to treat others like shit.  Douchebaggery is perfectly acceptable if you "contribute for love of the game."  bullshit.  I've contributed too and I feel no entitlement to turn into a jerk.  That kind of attitude suggests he's got severe self esteem problems - which I guess is common enough with RPG'ers - but I have no desire to make the choice of stroking his ego or facing his wrath.  I simply pass him by.

I disagree with the bolded statement. You aren't a jerk, but your work is easily misinterpreted and makes you seem like one. I've seen a number of people who were directed to the God handbooks state that they dislike the attitude of the thread and your statements on the other classes.

Again, I know better than to say you are a jerk. You aren't, I know this. But people need to be familiar with you to recognize your tone.

I also have read much of Frank's work, much was available through Surreal's CO guide - although I never commented on it.  I dunno *shrug* it was OK.  Nothing that makes him better than other CO's who have contributed and haven't acted like dickwads.  Let me provide an example - look how much Dictum Mortuum or Surreal have contributed - yet they are both consistantly class acts.

I've all ready covered my opinion on his works, so if someone would like to provide feedback on that stance please direct me to the Tomes.

Speaking of not getting the message - the shoes on the other foot.  I said Frank didn't debate - you said he did because he answered questions.  I pointed out that debate requires two way communication (usually the civil exchange of ideas on conflicting issues).

Somehow you've connected that line of debate to Paizo - I'm not sure how (though I guess it is a thread about Pathfinder).

Paizo doesn't debate, they disbelieve any points presented to them by legitimate min-maxers in favor of people who suck up to them. Anyone who defends those min-maxers is ignored or treated as an enemy of their fix.

To sum up - If anyone thought I was flaming - my apologies (especially if ST thought I was).  I have an opinion on Pathfinder that obviously doesn't match the status quo on these boards - and I shared that opinion.  After that - I was just messing around with ST.  No I don't think he's stupid - though he does use the word "fail" too much when he could instead be saying why it fails. 

So you are refering to Sunic, not me. Ok, you were just abreviating his screenname wrong.

[Treantmonklvl20]

When did I come up in this again? The past 4 pages have me a little off-balance, so if this is in response to my post (or any of the Paizo posts I've made in the Logic Fail threads) please let me know so I can defend my points.

As you suspect - I was hitting "T" instead of "F" - I apologize for poor form in this respect.

I disagree with the bolded statement. You aren't a jerk, but your work is easily misinterpreted and makes you seem like one. I've seen a number of people who were directed to the God handbooks state that they dislike the attitude of the thread and your statements on the other classes.

The handbook is written intentionally sarcastic and degrading to the other classes.

Not big on being degrading to living things - but in my book - being degrading to a character-type for imaginary characters is fair game.  I've always assumed that people would get no more offended from me calling fighters "Big and Stupid" than calling red lights "The evil red glow of Satan!" (Except of course, from Satanists)

Of course, there's been posts on this thread that at least one poster figured I was a jerk because of what I said about fighters...weird.

[Sunic_Flames]

Just one thing.

Sunic's common response to people disagreeing with him is to call them idiots, so please keep that in mind when debating with him. We've all seen his posts, we know he insults people a lot to get them irritated so they can't argue straight.

Bullshit. Let me know if elaboration is required.

[wO-_-OdrOw]

You aren't a jerk, but your work is easily misinterpreted and makes you seem like one. I've seen a number of people who were directed to the God handbooks state that they dislike the attitude of the thread and your statements on the other classes.

The guide to playing a GOD was very informative, satirical, and IMO very refreshing. The satire in it was obvious and made it easier to read all the way through it instead of just skim. Someone took offense to calling melee oriented characters "the big stupid fighter?" Really? Really? And you care to mention that someone did? How thick of a person to read that and not  but rather  I'm thinking they were chemically imbalanced.

[Sinfire Titan]

You aren't a jerk, but your work is easily misinterpreted and makes you seem like one. I've seen a number of people who were directed to the God handbooks state that they dislike the attitude of the thread and your statements on the other classes.

The guide to playing a GOD was very informative, satirical, and IMO very refreshing. The satire in it was obvious and made it easier to read all the way through it instead of just skim. Someone took offense to calling melee oriented characters "the big stupid fighter?" Really? Really? And you care to mention that someone did? How thick of a person to read that and not  but rather  I'm thinking they were chemically imbalanced.

To be honest, I laughed my ass off at the idiot. But the fact that he did misread the subtext does prove that people only read what they want to.

Bullshit. Let me know if elaboration is required.

I've seen it happen a few too many times. That, and I know better than to argue a dead topic. Post however you will, my opinion is my opinion.

That said, I don't dislike the style you have. I find it rather entertaining and sometimes very appropriate.

[Sunic_Flames]

For your statement to be true, there would have to be no blatant examples of the contrary. There are a few right here in this thread where my disagreeing with someone did not result in me calling them an idiot. In fact I specifically stated the criteria for idiot are something else entirely and something far more stringent on many occasions. Hell, this post is an example of disagreeing with someone without calling them an idiot. If you were right I'd be attacking you, attacking Frank Trollman, and attacking a long list of other people such that it would be easier to list the people I'm not attacking. Since this clearly is not the case, bullshit.

[skydragonknight]

So does anyone here disagree that we could have made a better Pathfinder with the talent we have here? :-P

[BowenSilverclaw]

Obviously, although at least some people still wouldn't agree with eachother on certain aspects of the rebuild of the system, so that could provide for some 'interesting' discussions as well

[juton]

Obviously, although at least some people still wouldn't agree with eachother on certain aspects of the rebuild of the system, so that could provide for some 'interesting' discussions as well

Anyone have some suggestions for quicker, dirtier fixes than Pathfinder? JaronK included a little blurb about how to balance character classes, are there any other ideas that don't require memorizing an SRD worth of new information?

[Straw_Man]

  This WILL get boed but hey, free exchange of ideas  Casters, and to a greater degree artificers, change the game radically as they level. Keeping game balance becomes difficult if not impossible as one subsection uses damage and the other Rocket Tags Reality. Maybe meleers are in-line with power balance and its casters that are inflated.

  A painful solution: Spellcasters get their next spellcasting level every 3 rounds instead of 2. Example, wizards get their 2nd level spell at level 4, their 3rd at level 7 and so on finally getting sixth level spells at level 19; a Sorceror would get its 6th level slots at 20th.

  Some spells would be reassessed in levels, for example Entombment would be a 6th level spell; Limited Wish an Epic 8th level spell, and so on. Keep in mind that this will affect DC's as well and damage may become a tad bit more viable as your caster levels advance faster than your spell DC's.

  Will caster types still run the game with only 6th levels spells, or does this nerf just strike at the balls? Or to restate the question, would you have incentive to try other options to Epic Win.

 

 

 

[Sunic_Flames]

So does anyone here disagree that we could have made a better Pathfinder with the talent we have here? :-P

No doubt at all. All the good fixes (like skill fixings, whatever) were basically stolen from other systems such as Saga. Not to mention I've been doing it myself better at least a year in advance. That's just me working alone, and I have no illusions about professional grade contributions. Still the fact my own personal house rules are both more extensive and actually fix stuff better than their entry into the professional market says a lot.

Quick and dirty fix?

Replace the Barbarian and Fighter classes with the Warblade. Allow Rage and Pounce availability as easily qualified for feats to keep the Barb dip in. If someone wants to dip for feats direct them to Psychic Warriors.

Leave Bards alone. They're actually alright.

Replace Clerics with Favored Souls.

Druids must take the Shapeshift variant from PHB2.

Replace Monks with Swordsages (unarmed variant). Also allow normal Swordsages for variety.

Replace Paladins with Crusaders.

Allow Wild Shape Ranger as a Ranger variant. This class is really only left in because ToB doesn't do archery, and its Swift Hunter applications. Obviously this means Scout should be in.

Leave Rogues alone. They're alright with the non core stuff to SA anything and such.

Replace Sorcerers and Wizards with either Beguilers, Dread Necromancers, or Warmages depending on focus. This may require making another class to cover divinations and summoning and the like that the above don't cover.

Everyone is now Tier 2, 3, or 4. Discuss.

Edit: Artificers are the least problematic of the Big Five as their power is potential. It's much easier to hold back and precisely aim at a lower tier, whereas the others are either gods or made of Fail with no middle ground. All nerfing casters would do is result in a lot of unsolvable problems, as evidenced by the group that doesn't have any real caster power and is seriously getting owned by fire based blasting that isn't even quite level appropriate (level 2 and 3 spells vs a group with a party level of 7.2). Don't do this unless you want your group to be made a joke of by level appropriate opposition.

[juton]

Getting rid of the Big 5 really does help, but an option that keeps Wizards and Sorcerers will probably go over better with the uneducated masses.

Two ideas off the top of my head are:
Spells/SLAs are capped at level 3, you can use your higher slots for metamagic. All the evoker wannabes can still hurl around empowered fireballs, but there's no tricks like solid fog then killcloud.

All stat damage is stat drain, every negative condition caused by a spell or SLA gets a new save every round, as a free action. Even a lowly fighter is going to make some of his saves eventually, a wizard might need help at higher levels. HP damage from spells is applied as normal.

Both are quick and backwards compatible, but would they be enough/too much?

[Sunic_Flames]

All that means is the beatsticks are stuck fighting uncrippled foes. Read: They die. Violently. Without casters pulling their (everyone's) weight they (everyone) fail. Notice that my list limits all the casters while giving melee the tools to actually adapt and deal with non auto attack based situations.

[PhaedrusXY]

Getting rid of the Big 5 really does help, but an option that keeps Wizards and Sorcerers will probably go over better with the uneducated masses.

Two ideas off the top of my head are:
Spells/SLAs are capped at level 3, you can use your higher slots for metamagic. All the evoker wannabes can still hurl around empowered fireballs, but there's no tricks like solid fog then killcloud.

All stat damage is stat drain, every negative condition caused by a spell or SLA gets a new save every round, as a free action. Even a lowly fighter is going to make some of his saves eventually, a wizard might need help at higher levels. HP damage from spells is applied as normal.

Both are quick and backwards compatible, but would they be enough/too much?

You might as well play E6 at that point.

[Kaelik]

You might as well play E6 at that point.

I think he'd rather see people get mauled by dragons and TPKed on a regular basis.

[RobbyPants]

Quick and dirty fix?

<snip>

Everyone is now Tier 2, 3, or 4. Discuss.

A lot of this was the basis for my current project.  As far as quick and dirty, it certainly gets you most of the way there with published material.

I agree that people might be disapointed by how arcane magic would change.  Still, if you created a few more classes like the beguiler/dread necro/warmage to fill the holes, it'd be a much easier pill to swallow.

[juton]

You might as well play E6 at that point.

I like E6, I think it plays well with everyone contributing (not necessarily evenly). The reason I don't play E6 is that we couldn't use the adventure paths we have, and people really love to level.

[Sunic_Flames]

While we're on the subject of E6 it is worth pointing out a significant part of Paizo fail stems from the fact most of them aren't familiar with anything else and give false information accordingly. In other words, no play at 7+.

The main thing my set up leaves out is Conjuration (almost anything other than Orbs if I recall correctly, particularly summoning and calling effects) and Divination. Is there anything else missing? Because that can easily fit onto one caster.

[juton]

The main thing my set up leaves out is Conjuration (almost anything other than Orbs if I recall correctly, particularly summoning and calling effects) and Divination. Is there anything else missing? Because that can easily fit onto one caster.

I don't know who'd cover all the Transmutation spells, some are pretty dang'd useful out of combat (or in combat).