Author Topic: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?  (Read 65615 times)

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juton

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Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« on: December 11, 2008, 02:15:14 PM »
I've been playing Pathfinder, an 'upgrade' of the 3.5 rules for the last 6 or so months. There seems to be some disagreement as to what is improved and what was made worse, since the Pathfinder rules are a large package intended to be added as a whole I hope we can discuss whether or not they're worth adding to your game.

I am of the opinion that casters are largely nerfed and the melee fighters get a boost, our groups optimizers tend to use a lot of melee classes and melee/caster combos. Keep in mind most campaigns don't seem to get above 10th level, bear that in mind.

Changes to Classes, first the Big Three
Wizard Mixed: Specialization works a bit differently, you can't choose your extra spell granted from being a specialist each day, you choose it at level up. Wizards get extra powers, but most of them are fairly minor with the exception of the universalist's free metamagic power. They stop gaining (or advancing) these powers if they multiclass out of Wizard.

Some of their staple spells like glitterdust and altershape got nerfed, if you mix Pathfinder with Spell Compendium you'll probably come out ahead though.

Cleric NERFED: Domains don't advance if you multiclass out of cleric. Several A level domains nerfed, Travel domain gives flight at level 8, dimension door at level 12. New turn undead doesn't actually turn undead, only damages them for CL/2 D6 damage, not good vs. bosses.

Druid NERFED: Get this, Wildshape is now limited to giving you +6 strength, -2 dex, +2 con and +6 natural armour. That's for a high level druid, lower level druids get a smaller bonus.

and the rest:
Barbarian BOOST: Rage points let you do a number of interesting things, like add you class level to attack rolls or grapple checks. A conservative barbarian player can effectively rage in every encounter now.

Bard BOOST: They get extra spells known and can cast first level spells at level 1. Not much but it's nice if you like bards.

Fighter Not much:Get a bonus to weapons and armour, and a bonus versus fear.

Monk Not much:Get's a Ki pool to do tricks, still doesn't fix what's wrong with a monk (flurry of fail).

Paladin BOOST:If you use the design upgrade : here Palys get strong wis, there smite can last round(s) now so it works with full attacks and TWF and does more damage, lay on hands is improved, can choose a magic sword instead of a magic horse.

Ranger boost:Rangers can choose from a larger list of feats for their combat style, get favoured terrain bonuses. Not much but still, it's nice.

Rogue BOOST: Rogues get a silly boost, they can choose an equivalent of a feat every even level.

Sorcerer BOOST: Basically get a domain of extra spells known, it's only 9 in total, and a lot of them suck but it helps the Sorc with his biggest problem.

Every class (except the big three) get something, although in the Fighter's and Monk's case I don't think it's enough. Comments, thoughts?
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 09:28:50 PM by juton »

RobbyPants

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #1 on: December 11, 2008, 02:44:18 PM »
Of course, compared to the bulk of classes (excluding the core big three), sorcerers don't need to be boosted.
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Callix

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2008, 04:48:31 PM »
Also, Clerics don't actually care about advancing their domain abilities or turning undead. They grab domains like Pride, Planning, or Undeath that don't scale, or swap for Devotions, and divine feats. So that cleric nerf looks good on paper, but unless they stripped down the Cleric's spell list, even losing the domain slots isn't that bad.

The Druid nerf actually matters, but it doesn't stop a Halfling druid sharing Bite of the Werewolf with its fleshraker mount. So druids lose one of their paths to ultimate power, but keep the other two: spells and a second PC.
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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2008, 05:02:24 PM »
There are a few cleric domains that advance w/ the cleric and are really useful.

Travel, for one ... and then things like Balance, Mysticism have cleric level as a component.

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2008, 05:22:48 PM »
Power Attack is nerfed. Improved Trip is nerfed heavily. Thus, non casters have no tricks. They can just auto attack, except auto attack doesn't work. They could have +9,001 to their auto attack numbers and it still makes no difference whatsoever because an option that doesn't work is an option that doesn't work. Part of the reason Paizo is made of Fail is because they do not understand what they are doing, therefore they aren't realizing the reason why non casters Fail hard is because their one trick is required for functioning yet casually negated and in PF they don't even have their one trick anymore. Another part (this is by no means a complete list) is they don't even understand the fucking game. They have seriously released feats for stuff you could already do for free without the feat. Which means they either are completely fucking incompetent due to not realizing they're creating things that already existed even in core or are completely fucking incompetent for thinking that making non casters have to pay for trivial shit they could do for free before and therefore are feeling the need to nerf mundanes. A single look at their forums will make it very apparent why Epic Failboat is Epic... just look at what passes for constructive feedback and logical discussion there! No wonder shit doesn't get done!

Oh yeah. One more thing. PF fucks up multiclassing hard. This naturally fucks over mundanes, as Power Dipping is the name of the attempted viable mundane game. Power Dipping, among other things boosts saves... at least it did until PF came along. Now good luck getting yourself capable of surviving real magic.
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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #5 on: December 11, 2008, 05:48:13 PM »
What Paizo seems to be ignoring with their attempts to discourage multiclassing is that it's very difficult to even come close to competing with casters without being able to multiclass effectively. Casters could care less about multiclassing problems--they can stay in one class their entire career and probably wind up ahead of the curve, but everyone else can't do that, and now their alternative solution is messed up. I'm not too fond of Pathfinder.

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #6 on: December 11, 2008, 05:50:27 PM »
Bane.

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2008, 06:01:55 PM »
Bane.
Seconded. I have a friend playing this, and the quote made by some famous Char-Op'er made still holds true, "Pathfinder was made by people who know terrible things go on in the depths on the CharOp boards, but without any real knowledge of what actually happens." The result? A bunch of things get buffed that shouldn't, the same for nerfs, and then silly feats and such are released. What's that, a feat that lets me crit as a standard action so long as I hit, any number of times per day? Let me grab my scythe and sign me up!

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2008, 06:05:54 PM »
Bane.
Seconded. I have a friend playing this, and the quote made by some famous Char-Op'er made still holds true, "Pathfinder was made by people who know terrible things go on in the depths on the CharOp boards, but without any real knowledge of what actually happens." The result? A bunch of things get buffed that shouldn't, the same for nerfs, and then silly feats and such are released. What's that, a feat that lets me crit as a standard action so long as I hit, any number of times per day? Let me grab my scythe and sign me up!
:lol A friend of mine was telling me that it is great, and that now there is little reason to multiclass if you're a fighter. I have hardly looked at it. It's funny how different the story is from you guys.
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juton

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2008, 06:20:03 PM »
@Sunic_Flames

Wow, your're really correct. The change to powerattack didn't last 1 minute before we switched back to 3.5, it happened so quick I had to look it up what you meant in the rules. The change to improved trip, that really sucks for fighters. A Barbarian can still be effective with a spiked chain but everyone else has to suck it.

I don't know what you're talking about with regards to multiclassing, there aren't even multiclassing rules in the pathfinder book so they default to 3.5. Prestige classes grant one less save bonus on a strong save at each level, is that what you're talking about?
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 06:42:46 PM by juton »

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2008, 06:45:57 PM »
@Sunic_Flames

Wow, your're correct. The change to powerattack didn't last 1 minute before we switched back to 3.5, it happened so quick I had to look it up what you meant in the rules. The change to improved trip, that really sucks for fighters. A Barbarian can still be effective with a spiked chain but everyone else has to suck it.

I don't know what you're talking about with regards to multiclassing, there aren't even multiclassing rules in the pathfinder book so they default to 3.5. Prestige classes grant one less save bonus on a strong save at each level, is that what you're talking about?

Part of it. There's something in there to the effect of strong saves only apply once. This does very little for casters given that straight class, or class + complete PRC is perfectly usable and that only helps Will, which combined with being a caster is the difference between... passing a save on a 2 if anyone's stupid enough to attack it and... passing a save on a 2 if anyone's stupid enough to attack it.

Improved Trip fails both because the extra attack is now missing which justified the two feat expenditure (it's not like Combat Expertise is remotely worthwhile on its own merits) and because their default assumption is a 30% success rate.

What this means is vs anything even a little better than you (which given the way monsters work, is nearly everything) are flat out immune, whereas before you could as least manage a 50% success rate and follow up with the same setup.

Compare for example a level 10 tripper Fighter or whatever to a Fire Giant. Very basic enemy there. The giant has +14 to resist in 3.5. You have around +9 or so. That's 31 Str and Large for the Giant, 20 Str and Medium for you. You might have a point or two higher, but it isn't likely because tripper = MAD therefore starting with > 16 = not so likely. Level up, item, done. Anyways, that's a 26.25% chance to trip the giant. PF, same enemy = DC 37 via 15 base + 10 strength + 11 BAB + 1 size. You have... +17 via the aforementioned Str, and BAB. 5% success rate. Your only option is to auto attack stab it in the face.

Add Enlarge and the 3.5 Fighter gets +5. PF Fighter gets +2. Now the 3.5 Fighter has equal chances of wasting his attack and attacking at +4 vs a disadvantaged opponent. This justifies the action and resource expenditure on the part of both the Fighter and the Wizard. Meanwhile PF Fighter only has a 15% success rate. The Wizard wasted an action Enlarging him and the Fighter is wasting actions as long as he thinks tripping is worth a damn.

Use any enemy better than a giant (which is most of them) and the fact they outclass you in every way is more apparent. Giants are considered low end because their BAB is only slightly higher than yours. Note that enemies still have no problem screwing you over with these things. Unless they're humanoids or something, but those are just free XP and loot anyways.

Basically, if you are going to inflict a status effect, and the assumed success rate is 30%, it had damn well better be an awesome status effect!

This counts:



This does not count:

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/conditionSummary.htm#prone

Obviously, any maneuver other than trip is far worse, so as to be basically unusable even in 3.5. Well, Dungeoncrasher and Bull Rush. That's about it. Even then, it's only because of the feat that applies it to every attack combined with a wall in the right place.
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TheChrisWaits

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2008, 08:38:38 PM »
I agree that as a whole it's terrible. There are a few good ideas in there, and just like any other "fix" to 3.5, I'll grab what I like and ignore the rest.

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #12 on: December 11, 2008, 09:16:09 PM »
I'm playing Pathfinder right now (running as DM), and I'm quite fond of it.

Granted, there is some tweaking needed - keep in mind though that Pathfinder is currently a playtest version.

For DM's - Pathfinder is a Godsend - no more polymorph/wildshape abuse.  Faster xp system.  Easy Combat Manouvers that follow standardized rules.  Rules tend to be more clearly worded.

For players - basically everything is powered up.  Feats every second level.  All races have net bonuses on abilities.  There is actually an advantage to taking your races preferred class.  HP are up on average.  Skills are up on average.  Condensed skills that make your skill based character less thinly spread out.

However, some things we all knew needed fixed are.  Yes - wildshape is way less powerful if you don't get an infinite selection of abilities and rely on attribute enhancement instead of attribute replacement.  However, one of my players is playing a Druid (Half-Orc) - and my impression is that Druids are still very tough - more tough in some ways.

Big Paizo fan here.  These guys did it right with Dungeon/Dragon (look at them now without Paizo!).  Pathfinder is done right as well.  Could you imagine WOTC actually allowing their players to download a free playtest of the rules so they can deliver feedback?  No chance.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #13 on: December 11, 2008, 10:05:40 PM »

For players - basically everything is powered up. 

Feats every second level. 
Effectively a nerf to fighters, since the marginal utility of your twentieth bonus feat is much less than the marginal utility of your tenth.
All races have net bonuses on abilities. 
Never been an issue for me... I've never cared that much about net bonuses so long as I netted pointbuy points for the stats I wanted high.
There is actually an advantage to taking your races preferred class. 
People actually played with the preferred class rules?  I thought they were a myth/ flavor text. 
Still, 1 hp or 1 skill point isn't much - and as casters tend to multiclass less, it's going to more of a caster benefit than anything else.  At least they made sure it didn't apply to PrCs, although it's not like druids or clerics used them that often.
HP are up on average.  Skills are up on average.  Condensed skills that make your skill based character less thinly spread out.
HP was increased for the following classes:
Wizard
sorcerer
bard
rogue

So, basically, a bump for casters. 


Skill changes:  Subtract 3 points from your max cap, then give a +3 bonus to all class skills (unstacking).  Crossclass skills no longer are capped at half, and don't require extra points.  Colour me unimpressed. 

Skill points per level were not increased for any classes - not even the fighter, who sorely needs it.

Search, spot, and listen are now perception (standard skill package, except there are separate perception subsets for each of the five major senses, and different racial abilities give different bonuses.  Hardly a simplification.  Oh, and sweat is easier to smell than blood.);
Hide and move silently folded into stealth (also standard);
Decipher script, forgery, and Speak Language are now linguistics.  Yes, that's right.  Whenever you learn how to forge documents better, you also learn how to write and speak a new language  :banghead  ;
balance, jump, and tumble are now acrobatics;
gather information is now part of diplomacy (which is now capped at two {possibly three - it's badly phrased} steps, and slightly less broken - one of the things I do like about the system.)
Open lock is now part of disable device (not a particularly bad move)

Use rope no longer exists (what, they couldn't stick it into disable device or something?)




However, some things we all knew needed fixed are.  Yes - wildshape is way less powerful if you don't get an infinite selection of abilities and rely on attribute enhancement instead of attribute replacement.  However, one of my players is playing a Druid (Half-Orc) - and my impression is that Druids are still very tough - more tough in some ways.

Here's my nerf for the druid: (Wildshaping, spellcasting, animal companion).  Pick two. 
It's simple and allows versatility.



I think a bit of the issue is spelled out here:
Quote
"Designer Notes: Race and Class Power
These rules  increase the power of the base races and classes to  some  extent. This was done  for  a number of  reasons, the most  important  of  which  was  to  balance  them  with the current  level of power  in the game. Over the years, a number of other races and classes have been released that are  a bit more powerful  than  the base options. Since we do not want  the  core  races  and  classes  to be  suboptimal choices, and we cannot change the other material, adding to the base choices seemed like the best option. We think that you will f ind these changes are not all that  intrusive, and might even allow you  to play with some of  the other races and classes on an even scale."
It appears they don't realize that three out of the five most broken classes are the cleric, druid, and wizard.



That said, the changes to how manuverability works do make flying a little simpler.  On the other hand, they also require dice rolls, so YMMV.


Oh, and they haven't done ANYTHING to the candle of invocation or gate.


Basically, there are four levels they should do, listed in order of priority:

Patches: Fix things that are already horribly broken.  Do these first - that way you know you've improved *something*
For example, candles of invocation, diplomacy.

Mechanics: Fix things that aren't horribly broken, but don't work correctly - they're overcomplicated, or just aren't doing what they ought to.
Examples: Grappling, multiclassing with casters.  Depending on your POV, combining skills

Balance: Once your mechanics are sound, you've streamlined the subsystems, and you've removed the stuff that's horribly broken, now it's time to make classes and races roughly equal.  If you aren't sure what's balanced, call in some optimizers and have them make the most broken characters they can with your current rules.  If needed, go back to patches and mechanics for a bit.
Example: nerfing druids.

Pocket Lint: stuff that doesn't really matter, but would be noticeable by its absence.  +1 situational modifiers, the craft skill, flavor text, stuff like that
Example: +1 hp for leveling in your favored class. 
« Last Edit: December 11, 2008, 11:23:12 PM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2008, 12:17:48 AM »
For DM's - Pathfinder is a Godsend - no more polymorph/wildshape abuse.  Faster xp system.  Easy Combat Manouvers that follow standardized rules.  Rules tend to be more clearly worded.

1) And Polymorph is crap now, so effectively, ban polymorph.

2) You can level XP at any rate you choose, the fast progression is stolen right out of 3.5 recommendations.

3) Standardized maneuvers. But the real benefit, is that no one can ever succeed at them, so after two tries your players will realize how terrible they are, and never use them again. That's right: Pathfinder: Trip is an NPC only ability.

For players - basically everything is powered up.  Feats every second level.  All races have net bonuses on abilities.  There is actually an advantage to taking your races preferred class.  HP are up on average.  Skills are up on average.  Condensed skills that make your skill based character less thinly spread out.

Feats are all nerfed, so about the same, actually worse because you can never get 3.5 Power attack/Improved Trip/ect, and feats are added that you take to let you do things you can already do in the Core rules. Metamagic feats are still the same though, so I guess Wizards make out like fiends.

Races are better: sexy. Most notable improvements: Humans are more badass, except that all non caster feats suck now. Elves are effectively Gray elves with free stacking spell penetration. This just in: Wizards still get all the cool toys.

Wizards also get a few more HP, no one cares. HP increased only for casters and rogue.

Everyone gets same number of skills, but they get a +3 to every skill they didn't care about.

Condensed skills and cross class rules favor Wizard again, also, they added a fly skill, probably with the intent of punishing Wizards, but Wizards have skill points to spare, and it's the big stupid fighter who needs to fly to even attack enemies who gets the real raw end of the deal. Not to mention because Wizards just need to fly away, but fighters actually need to maneuver.

However, some things we all knew needed fixed are.  Yes - wildshape is way less powerful if you don't get an infinite selection of abilities and rely on attribute enhancement instead of attribute replacement.  However, one of my players is playing a Druid (Half-Orc) - and my impression is that Druids are still very tough - more tough in some ways.

Yes, Wildshape is way less useful when you can't actually use it to turn into anything, and it's just the Shapeshift Variant but not as good. We already had that variant.

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #15 on: December 12, 2008, 12:20:07 AM »
Quote from: The_Mad_Linguist
Stuff
Everytime I see this guy write something, I find myself emptying out my pockets with more fu.

The fighter loosing because of the feat boost to other classes was what I was going to mention. You beat me to it. I pretty much disagree with treantmonks assesment whole heartedly.
Here's the deal... they didn't really *Fix* anything... they just shuffled the problems around a little bit.
A good visual would be a kid trying not to eat something bad on his plate, its still there but he's trying to hide it from mom so he doesn't have to deal with it. . . = paizo.
Even at that to me it was a step backwards more than anything.
Anything that they changed to make unplayable they may have well as just banned. Again they didn't *fix* anything... Pathfinder is an elemetary set of houserules most of us can do better than ourselves.
So I say bane...

*edit* Kaelik's answers are also awesomely true.*
« Last Edit: December 12, 2008, 12:22:04 AM by Midnight_v »
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juton

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #16 on: December 12, 2008, 12:52:53 AM »
Here's the deal... they didn't really *Fix* anything... they just shuffled the problems around a little bit.
A good visual would be a kid trying not to eat something bad on his plate, its still there but he's trying to hide it from mom so he doesn't have to deal with it. . . = paizo.

I think that's pretty apt. A lot of the big problems are so obvious it's incredible paizo didn't address them in the Alpha. A lot of the changes seem random to, they won't give Monks full bab because of backwards compatibility, but completely change the way Cleric domains work.

I don't think it's as horrible as the Mad_Linguist, Sunic_Flames or Kaelix puts it, but the diehard optimizers won't give up their old 3.5 casters so it's a pointless addition.

Edit:I didn't realize the negative connotations 'Munchkin' had associated with it, apologies to those offended.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2008, 02:08:43 AM by juton »

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #17 on: December 12, 2008, 12:56:29 AM »
Wild Shape needed a nerf, yeah. But the way they did it was incredibly clumsy, in my opinion. So at least they're failing at the right thing, in this instance.

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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #18 on: December 12, 2008, 01:09:06 AM »
Wild Shape needed a nerf, yeah. But the way they did it was incredibly clumsy, in my opinion. So at least they're failing at the right thing, in this instance.

A fail is a fail though, even if it was for the good.

And Pathfinder isn't backwards-compatible. The sheer number of changes they've made to the system prevents it from being compatible with 3.5. And their Fighter fix fails hard. Copy-Pasta is bad, yo.


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Re: Is Pathfinder a Boon or a Bane?
« Reply #19 on: December 12, 2008, 01:22:54 AM »
Quote
I think that's pretty apt. A lot of the big problems are so obvious it's incredible paizo didn't address them in the Alpha. A lot of the changes seem random to, they won't give Monks full bab because of backwards compatibility, but completely change the way Cleric domains work.

I don't think it's as horrible as the Mad_Linguist, Sunic_Flames or Kaelix puts it, but the diehard munchkins won't give up their old 3.5 casters so it's a pointless addition.
Thanks...
but a few things....
1.The way you worded that it make it seem like you're calling those guys munckins. Thats not cool. So we should talk definitions maybe. Munckin = cheater not optimizer. Even if it does mean optimizer... it's one of the most derogatory ways of saying it. I'm not sure if it was your intent, and I'm not angry but if anyone takes offense that might brew a storm.

2. Believe it or not: the Mad_Linguist, Sunic_Flames or Kaelix have actually hit the nail dead on the head with thier statements, and frankly from what I can see are not just in love with the 3.5 casters. . .
Or thier powers. . .

#3. Why? How do I know? Because the Paizo wizard is MORE powerful than the 3.5 wizard, looking at the class chasis. The universalist is 'bout broke. I'm sure you could jimmy it to being an Incantrix-like critter.

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I had never seen this comment.....
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I have a friend playing this, and the quote made by some famous Char-Op'er made still holds true, "Pathfinder was made by people who know terrible things go on in the depths on the CharOp boards, but without any real knowledge of what actually happens." The result? A bunch of things get buffed that shouldn't, the same for nerfs,
but its pretty much true.

Another thing that bugged me was that they SOLD the beta as a book... W... T... F. I got mine online for free but then I saw it at my FLGS and went ???
In the end, you can get better houserules on the interwebs and for free. OR you can come up with them yourself.

That has nothing to do with me Loving "caster power" or "hating elves or whatever" that just comes from me actually working on houserules and playing paizo and saying "Damn, Szatany, Frank&Keith, and Robbypants,  O4A have all done a better a better job at fixing the game than Jason Buhman and his company.

Don't believe me? Go to the house rules and creations forum and see the rebalancing compendium.
Or google Onewinged4ngel's rebalanced paladin. Or any of the names I've mentioned above and you'll see what a sham Pathfinder really is.


\\\"Disentegrate.\\\" \\\"Gust of wind.\\\" \\\"Now Can we PLEASE resume saving the world?\\\"