Awkward Binder counsel needed...

[Kuroimaken]

Okay, here's the thing. My DM allowed me to take feats for which my Binder qualifies when bound to a vestige that'd allow him to qualify for them (like Divine Feats if I have Tenebrous bound, or anything with Combat Reflexes with Paimon bound), but I'd only benefit from them as long as the vestige was bound to me.

Currently, my character is a Binder 6/KoSS3, with Improved Binding (which means so far I have access to level 5 vestiges and can bind two at once).

So, here are my queries:

1) Which feats are looking good for given Vestiges? (Divine Might for Tenebrous, or SUS for Ronove, etc.)
2) Which vestiges are SO DAMN GOOD I'll want to keep them close by forever so I can fully benefit from the feats?

Oh, and for the record: patron vestige is Andras, Str 14, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 13, Wis 10, Cha 18.
Current feats (We've got one for every even level, character is human):
Improved Binding, Expel Vestige, Weapon Focus (Lance), Battle Jump, Knowledge Devotion, Skill training: Athletics (yup, we're using a Saga-derived skill system too).

[jameswilliamogle]

So, here are my queries:

1) Which feats are looking good for given Vestiges? (Divine Might for Tenebrous, or SUS for Ronove, etc.)
2) Which vestiges are SO DAMN GOOD I'll want to keep them close by forever so I can fully benefit from the feats?

1.  Although you've lost a lot of levels towards it, see if you can convince your DM to allow you to use the divine adaptation of the Anima Mage.  2 levels of Ur-Priest w/ 5 levels of Tenebrous Apostate and / or some Anima Mage would be killer for you, particularly w/ DMM: Persistant spell using Tenebrous to qualify.  You WILL break the game w/ this one.  Anima Mage gives free metamagics, and you'll get more from DMM: Persist, so you Persist all your most powerful buffs, on the fly, for the hell of it.

I don't think there are many other feats that are worth investing in, personally.  SUS isn't worth it imho, except in very particular martial builds (I like the idea of mimicing a funky monk w/ Ronove and Zagan, personally, maybe w/ Chupoclops added in, too).

2.  Although it doesn't answer your exact question, I like Chupoclops: it gives pounce and ethereal jaunt.  Both are good in many different scenarios (like scouting or combat).  I never, ever regretted having him bound.

Zceccyril (sp?) from the Cityscape web enhancement is wicked powerful as well.  Essentially gives you tons of spell-likes from the summon lists, and other oft-overlooked abilities.

If you decide to go w/ the spellcaster, then Tenebrous is the one you want.
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See if your DM would allow you to retrain your patron to any of the latter (this isn't RAW legal, but the DM sounds lenient).

[CantripN]

Divine Vigor sounds useful, with it's 2 x HD in Temp. HP and +10 Speed.

Once you get Zceccyril, focus on Summoning Feats, or even consider taking some (5, to be exact) levels in Malconvoker.

[Kuroimaken]

1.  Although you've lost a lot of levels towards it, see if you can convince your DM to allow you to use the divine adaptation of the Anima Mage.  2 levels of Ur-Priest w/ 5 levels of Tenebrous Apostate and / or some Anima Mage would be killer for you, particularly w/ DMM: Persistant spell using Tenebrous to qualify.  You WILL break the game w/ this one.  Anima Mage gives free metamagics, and you'll get more from DMM: Persist, so you Persist all your most powerful buffs, on the fly, for the hell of it.

I don't think there are many other feats that are worth investing in, personally.  SUS isn't worth it imho, except in very particular martial builds (I like the idea of mimicing a funky monk w/ Ronove and Zagan, personally, maybe w/ Chupoclops added in, too).

There are two big problems towards that. First, there is a houserule in effect that you can't hop from one PrC to another. (I don't think I could qualify for Ur-Priest anyway...) Second, technically I wouldn't be able to "spend" more than one turn attempt when using it in any fashion so DMM is out (besides, we have a DMM Cleric in the party already, and I wouldn't want to steal his thunder).

Which patron vestige would you recommend going into?

Zceccyril (sp?) from the Cityscape web enhancement is wicked powerful as well.  Essentially gives you tons of spell-likes from the summon lists, and other oft-overlooked abilities.

Yeah, the fact you get a freaking powerful template while you're bound to him alone is already pretty awesome. Shame he's 8th level, though.

Divine Vigor sounds useful, with it's 2 x HD in Temp. HP and +10 Speed.

Once you get Zceccyril, focus on Summoning Feats, or even consider taking some (5, to be exact) levels in Malconvoker.

This would be by... 16th level, correct? Which Summoning Feats do you recommend?

[CantripN]

Actually, she's 6th level, not 8th, so a lot sooner than that... 

As for the feats, you'll need Spell Focus (Conjuration) and Augment Summoning to get into Malconvoker, so at the very least, those.

Otherwise, you don't really need anything in particular. Cloudy Conjuration & Summon Elemental could be fun, for even more options, while Rashemi Elemental Summoning is DAMN powerful. Ashbound is VERY good, too.

[Kuroimaken]

Actually, she's 6th level, not 8th, so a lot sooner than that...  Flutter

K. My bad.

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As for the feats, you'll need Spell Focus (Conjuration) and Augment Summoning to get into Malconvoker, so at the very least, those.

Otherwise, you don't really need anything in particular. Cloudy Conjuration & Summon Elemental could be fun, for even more options, while Rashemi Elemental Summoning is DAMN powerful. Ashbound is VERY good, too.

I don't think I can make a legal entry into Malconvoker, however. I don't actually have a way to get SF: Conjuration.

[CantripN]

Actually, Spell Focus has no requirements. Like Practiced Spellcaster, anyone can take it, even if they have no use for it whatsoever. Hell, a Wizard with a Prohibited School of Conjuration can take it for it, as can a Fighter.

[Kuroimaken]

Actually, Spell Focus has no requirements. Like Practiced Spellcaster, anyone can take it, even if they have no use for it whatsoever. Hell, a Wizard with a Prohibited School of Conjuration can take it for it, as can a Fighter.

That's... bizarre.

Game might go into epic level, though. I'd prefer to avoid going too far into multiclassing territory, specially with Epic Binding on the way.

[CantripN]

Actually, Spell Focus has no requirements. Like Practiced Spellcaster, anyone can take it, even if they have no use for it whatsoever. Hell, a Wizard with a Prohibited School of Conjuration can take it for it, as can a Fighter.

That's... bizarre.

Game might go into epic level, though. I'd prefer to avoid going too far into multiclassing territory, specially with Epic Binding on the way.

I find it hard to believe you'll get anything better than At-Will, Full Power, Twinned, Buffed, Summons.

That said, you can make a very good case for Malconvoker progressing Soul Binding with your DM's ruling. It only makes sense, and it's not overpowered by any means - it's just common sense. A Wizard taking the class can do many, far, far, far scarier, things.

[jameswilliamogle]

There are two big problems towards that. First, there is a houserule in effect that you can't hop from one PrC to another. (I don't think I could qualify for Ur-Priest anyway...)

OK.  Are there any other house rules that are related (I know they come in threes )?  

Second, technically I wouldn't be able to "spend" more than one turn attempt when using it in any fashion so DMM is out (besides, we have a DMM Cleric in the party already, and I wouldn't want to steal his thunder).

DMM lets you spend daily turning attempts, which many interpret as 24 h * 60 min/hr * 2 five round waits / min = 2880 turns per day...  but if you don't want to take some of the god's power that's cool, too...

There's a lot of things to consider when choosing your Patron; you've identified one of them: 1 which vestige do you want every day?  2 Which vestige will I use the other class abilities and my feats with?  3 What party role am I going to be doing from now on?  4 What abilities can I take massive advantage of w/ that 5th level reset button?

Actually, my choice depends on how the DM would interpret that 5th level ability, a bit... Reuse "immediately" might mean that it goes off in the same round.  If that's the case, then you did fine choosing Andras, as 2 smites in 1 round is quite awesome (so would Marchosias's Death Attack, for that matter, at really high level).  If the DM chose that it means you can reuse it the round after, then I'd pick Chupoclops, probably, if I stayed w/ melee.

Zceryll or Chupoclops, depending on how melee-intensive your Binder is.

Those would be the 2 I'd want to get patronage with, although Amon is ok for 4 (double EBL in damage 1/day w/ the first ruling) and a focused Binder w/ Marchosias would be killer (double death attack?! the first ruling).  Haures's abilities get the most advantage from the reset, due to them all having a duration (the second ruling).

[Kuroimaken]

DMM lets you spend daily turning attempts, which many interpret as 24 h * 60 min/hr * 2 five round waits / min = 2880 turns per day...  but if you don't want to take some of the god's power that's cool, too...

Well, according to him, the problem is that I don't have a way to spend all the turn attempts I'd need at once. And like I said, I'd prefer not to steal the Cleric's thunder. (Also, another houserule... DMM can't make you cast a spell you normally wouldn't be able to cast, so no persistant Shapechange until you have a 15th level slot, for example.)

There's a lot of things to consider when choosing your Patron; you've identified one of them: 1 which vestige do you want every day?  2 Which vestige will I use the other class abilities and my feats with?  3 What party role am I going to be doing from now on?  4 What abilities can I take massive advantage of w/ that 5th level reset button?

Well, I'm basically trying to not tie myself too much to a role, but so far I'm the handyman guy. I cover nearly every role that isn't covered already. Failing that, I help with melee. (The party has one monk, one warlock, an NPC Bard and an NPC Healer. The Cleric's player doesn't always happen to be around, but he helps cover the recovery/melee role when he is.)

I'm making a bit of a charger build based more or less on a Dragoon-ish fighting style - I'm at my best when I'm charging "Death from Above" style, basically, and Andras really helps with that considering smite.

Edit:

OK.  Are there any other house rules that are related (I know they come in threes Big Grin)? 

To multiclassing? I think there's one limiting base classes to three, or something, and PrCs only one at a time.

Tons of other houserules regarding Power Attack, Leap Attack, Pounce, stacking, etc...

[jameswilliamogle]

Good to know bout the PrCs.  With those houserules on the PrCs I think you'll do well at Binder 15 / KoSS 5.  That's a fine build, probably about a 3.5 on the power scale.

I'd use Zcerryl as my patron in a generalist case.  Its really, really good.

[Kuroimaken]

Good to know bout the PrCs.  With those houserules on the PrCs I think you'll do well at Binder 15 / KoSS 5.  That's a fine build, probably about a 3.5 on the power scale.

I'd use Zcerryl as my patron in a generalist case.  Its really, really good.

Yes, you lose practically nothing with KoSS.

Dangit, so far the most I can think of is to exploit Tenebrous' turns to power divine feats. There's gotta be something else I'm missing. There aren't many feats to improve smite, are they?

[Sinfire Titan]

Good to know bout the PrCs.  With those houserules on the PrCs I think you'll do well at Binder 15 / KoSS 5.  That's a fine build, probably about a 3.5 on the power scale.

I'd use Zcerryl as my patron in a generalist case.  Its really, really good.

Yes, you lose practically nothing with KoSS.

Dangit, so far the most I can think of is to exploit Tenebrous' turns to power divine feats. There's gotta be something else I'm missing. There aren't many feats to improve smite, are they?

CC has one. One.

[jameswilliamogle]

feats and feat-likes:

Weapons

    * [Andaras] Greatsword, lance, longsword, and rapier
    * [Haagenti] Battle Axe, Greataxe, handaxe, and throwing axe.
    * [Lareje] Composite Long bow, composite shortbow, longbow, and shortbow
    * [Paimon] Rapier and Short Sword
    * [Kas] Longsword, Bastard Sword, Short Sword
    * [The Triad] All simple, martial, and exotic weapons
    * [Ronove] Improved Unnarmed Strike (and damage as a monk of your BL)

Armor, Shields

    * [Aym] Medium Armor
    * [Eligor, Savnok] Heavy Armor
    * [Haagenti]Shields including tower shields

Melee Combat Related

    * [Paimon] Pseudo-Spring Attack
    * [Balam, Paimon] Weapon Finnesse (only with rapier and short sword for Paimon)
    * [Laraje] Precise Shot
    * [Otiax] Combat Reflexes
    * [Paimon] Whirlwind attack
    * [Zagan] Improved Grapple, considered large in size for grapple purposes and damage deal is lethal.
    * [Aym] Improved Sunder

Mounted Combat

    * [Eligor]Ride-by-attack
    * [Eligor]Spirited Charge

Other

    * [Buer] Track
    * [Astaroth] Every item creation feat that doesn't have a feat prereq, and CL = EBL for picking them
    * [Ansitif] Trall to Demon


I don't have some of the last 3.5 books, but is there a way to take advantage of Thrall to Demon?

[Kuroimaken]

I don't have some of the last 3.5 books, but is there a way to take advantage of Thrall to Demon?

By itself, it's looking pretty weak. Abyss Bound is looking good depending on who you're up with, but my character is good. Dangit! 

Fiendish Codex II seems to have some nice Divine Feats, though (DM tends to put evil outsiders in campaigns a lot).

I'll take a look at the Binder Handbook and see if there's anything else class-like and exploitable.