Author Topic: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge  (Read 87046 times)

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fliprushman

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #40 on: December 09, 2008, 07:17:22 AM »
Uber, I think that you are forgetting that he also can two weapon fight up close and can raise his AC with Combat Expertise and Fighting defensively(Not that he would take both at the same time).  So the rounds may look a little different from what you posted.  He isn't built to be a one-trick pony like your's is.

But I digress, the ultimate outcome of this is still flawed.  It would take more than one battle to settle this debate and I don't think people would want to stick this out to over 100 or so for consistent data collection.

On another note, both builds are awesome. ;)
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carnivore

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #41 on: December 09, 2008, 07:21:14 AM »
wow ... lots of stuff since last night.... great ....

first let me appologize for not checking the Build properly ..... originally the build had the feat Education @1st lvl as a Flaw bonus feat, but since ubernoob didnt want to use flaws... i removed it, but forgot to readust the build accordingly... i will correct it and repost it.


now to explain how it would work .... you need to not just guess, and use bad tactics..... use good tactics for both and observe the outcome.

will post later

 :D

ninjarabbit

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #42 on: December 09, 2008, 08:40:13 AM »
I wouldn't say it is negligible. Gaining +7/+8 To-Hit/Damage from Precognition/Prescience and extra damage from the things Callix listed pushes him pretty close. While I won't say the PW is better, the things listed definitely get him very close. Any why is 2d6 extra damage per attack negligible?

The fighter's full BAB means he can lauch more attacks and hit more often. The fighter has more feats to devote to archery while a psi-warrior is going to split his bonus feats between archery and psi-related stuff. And unlike most other builds the weapon specialization feats are actually worthwhile given the sheer number of attacks a fighter can make.

Precognition/Prescience only lasts 1 minute/level which is usually lasts one encounter and you're burning all you pp, expansion and claws of the beast are better for the pp-limited psi-warrior just because of their longer durations. Psionic shot only affect one attack at a time

Vasja

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #43 on: December 09, 2008, 10:38:38 AM »
The fighter's full BAB means he can lauch more attacks and hit more often.
This gives the fighter +5 to/Hit and an extra attack. While the extra attack is tough to make up for, the extra To-Hit is not.

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The fighter has more feats to devote to archery while a psi-warrior is going to split his bonus feats between archery and psi-related stuff.
The fighter has 3 feats over the Psychic Warrior. The only feats the PW is not going to be able to take are the Weapon Specialization line. There are more than enough feats to go around otherwise.

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And unlike most other builds the weapon specialization feats are actually worthwhile given the sheer number of attacks a fighter can make.
No argument here.

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Precognition/Prescience only lasts 1 minute/level which is usually lasts one encounter and you're burning all you pp, expansion and claws of the beast are better for the pp-limited psi-warrior just because of their longer durations. Psionic shot only affect one attack at a time
At 20th, with ~190 pp, using something like 30 per battle to get better hit and damage is not the worst move you could make. Expansion and Claws may be better, but we are talking about an archer here. And also, this will be situational based on the opponent. Flexibility is always a plus.

Greater Psionic Shot can be made twice in the first round, doing 8d6 damage on hit. This averages 28 damage. A fighter would have to take 14 attacks and three rounds for weapon specialization to go even with this ability. Deep Crystal can be used each shot for an extra 7 damage. Dissolving Weapon adds 14 average damage to the first shot. Offensive Prescience gives another 8 per attack. This is some fairly decent damage.

I reiterate again that I do believe that for the most part, Fighters make better archers than Psychic Warriors do. I am just trying to say that the difference in power is relatively small. And while damage/round is nice, Psychic Warriors do have some other tricks up their sleeve, with some better defenses in the form of powers and better mobility/flexibility.

Edit: Changed 'very small' -> 'relatively small'
« Last Edit: December 09, 2008, 03:29:28 PM by Vasja »

ninjarabbit

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #44 on: December 09, 2008, 10:52:53 AM »
One more thing I forgot, because of the fighter's better BAB he is able to qualify for certain archery feats earlier than the psi-warrior like improved precise shot, improved rapid shot, and manyshot.

PlzBreakMyCampaign

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #45 on: December 09, 2008, 11:28:54 AM »
Earlier does not necessarily mean better overall (perhaps we would have to try them at every level and then weight whatever levels we wanted).

This whole thread was started because Carnivore won't admit the defeat of fighters vs PsyWars.

Lets face it, aside from a slightly slower feat progression (Legacy Weapons, flaws, bloodlines can help with this) Psychic Warriors have a very powerful manifesting advantage over fighter-only feats.

I would have come down really hard on Carnivore earlier, but I don't like to flame and I usually like Carnivores stuff. Let's face it PsyWars belong in Tier 3 or 4 and Fighters belong in Tier 4 or 5. I like Ubernoob's tiers found here:http://forums.gleemax.com/showthread.php?t=1102296 except bard needs -1 unless it has *choice* PrC's and the poor Lurk deserves +1 (since I found it to be an absolutely lovely dip for SA builds).
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carnivore

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #46 on: December 09, 2008, 02:21:48 PM »
i hope this does not turn into a Flame-war thread..

im not taking anything Personally.... but i would like to prove to myself(with your assistance) my theory

i will correct my build.... exchanging Knowledge Devotion for Giantbane.... will redo the Skills also

before things start going badly .... lets just do this.... take it one round at a Time, lets also just take 10 with Attack rolls..... mainly because unless you can get to 50% hits you cant use Special Attacks that will fail most of the time... if you can hit me by taking 10, i will also allow your special attack to function


Round One:

Fighter wins Initiative..... Free action, Draw 2 axes, Move Action: Move 20', Standard Action: Fight Defensively and Throw a single Axe, Free Action Draw another Axe........ current distance between Fighter and PW = 50'..... +17 attack-4= +13 to hit AC 20... hits

have to go now.....

what does the PW do?

 :D




skydragonknight

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #47 on: December 09, 2008, 02:51:35 PM »
The only real way to test them would be to use them both in campaigns.

True. And those weren't matchup ideas for arena. Those were matchup ideas for numerical analysis. Arena matches are decided by initiative rolls. You only get a small amount of data from them.

Anyway, my theory is: "for any type of Fighter you make, I can make a Psychic Warrior that is better at doing the same thing."
At 20th level this is true, but it isn't always true before then. Some examples:

One thing I have noticed is that due to BAB there are some tricks a Fighter can do earlier than Psychic Warrior(Leap Attack+Shock Trooper at 6th for Fighter and 8th for PsyWar).
A two level gap isn't much credit to the Fighter though, since once the PsyWar gains the ability he has Psionic Lion's Charge to back it up and does it better.

The same is true for Robilar's Gambit builds, but the difference there is huge. Fighter's have Robilar's Gambit at 12, where PWs have to wait until 17(since they don't get a feat at 16th).
A five level gap is very significant, so the PsyWar actually loses that one unless he starts near 20th level.

Still, there are very few feats that require more than 6 BAB that define a fighting style, so for most fighting styles, the PsyWar will be the victor: even if it takes him 2 extra levels to do it, when he can do it, he does it better. I'm not going to mention the things a PW can do that a Fighter can't, since Ubernoob is very much on top of that.
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Vasja

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #48 on: December 09, 2008, 03:06:29 PM »
Fighter wins Initiative..... Free action, Draw 2 axes, Move Action: Move 20', Standard Action: Fight Defensively and Throw a single Axe, Free Action Draw another Axe........ current distance between Fighter and PW = 50'..... +17 attack-4= +13 to hit AC 20... hits

Axes have a range increment of 10'. 50' out puts you at -8 on the attack, not -4, giving you +9 to hit AC 20. No hit here.

Personally I like how Ubernoob analyzed this fight - using weighted damage (probability to hit * average damage). It is a fair analysis; while it discounts spike damage, and thus is not perfectly valid, it works for this fight (as it affects him adversely to a larger extent).

juton

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #49 on: December 09, 2008, 05:18:57 PM »
i will correct my build.... exchanging Knowledge Devotion for Giantbane.... will redo the Skills also
I think Giant's bane requires 5 ranks of tumble, which you can't get cross class until level 7.
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Round One:

Fighter wins Initiative..... Free action, Draw 2 axes, Move Action: Move 20', Standard Action: Fight Defensively and Throw a single Axe, Free Action Draw another Axe........ current distance between Fighter and PW = 50'..... +17 attack-4= +13 to hit AC 20... hits

Ok without knowledge devotion your to hit should be 6 for dex plus 6 for BAB, 1 for weapon focus, 1 for size and 1 for MWK. Total bonus equals 15 (if I missed anything let me know). Your attack will be at -8 for range so you'll hit my archer's ff ac of 16 60% of the time for at an average of 4.5 damage. Averaging this all out my PW is at 33.3/36HP

On my action I manifest levitate and ascend 20 feet, I then manifest hustle and move another 20 feet up. You're 50 feet away from the point on the groind directly under me, I'm 40 feet in the air so using pythagoras I'm 64 feet away. You'll have to move 20 feet to attack me, let's say you even crit and confirm on this attack and the previous one, my PW is at 9/36 HP.

I can be so bold because after your attack I move up another 20 feet and you can't hit me until levitate runs out, I'm still at 14/20 pp. I manifest Animal affinity for dex. I assume you make a break for it. If I'm roughly anywhere close to the centre of the arena I can peg you anywhere at at -2 for range (far shot). Since you haven't mentioned terrain I'll assume there is none. Even if you have 5 ranks in tumble (which you can't cuz you're a fighter) your max AC is 25, and I attack with a +9. I'll hit 25% of the time, I'll spend my move action get psionically focused then using psionic shot, I'll do an average of 12.5 damage a hit (3.125 weighted average damage a round). That means I should pop your fighter in 17.6 rounds. I have 60 arrows and can levitate for 60 rounds (with one manifesting), I could kill you fighter 3 times over.

Ubernoob

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #50 on: December 09, 2008, 05:41:54 PM »
i hope this does not turn into a Flame-war thread..

im not taking anything Personally.... but i would like to prove to myself(with your assistance) my theory

i will correct my build.... exchanging Knowledge Devotion for Giantbane.... will redo the Skills also

before things start going badly .... lets just do this.... take it one round at a Time, lets also just take 10 with Attack rolls..... mainly because unless you can get to 50% hits you cant use Special Attacks that will fail most of the time... if you can hit me by taking 10, i will also allow your special attack to function


Round One:

Fighter wins Initiative..... Free action, Draw 2 axes, Move Action: Move 20', Standard Action: Fight Defensively and Throw a single Axe, Free Action Draw another Axe........ current distance between Fighter and PW = 50'..... +17 attack-4= +13 to hit AC 20... hits

have to go now.....

what does the PW do?

 :D
You can't take ten on attack rolls.  Weighted average is the only way to actually run these things.  I gave your fighter one extra assumed "I didn't hit you touch AC" more than statistics would allow for the bad luck scenario and your fighter still gets his shit wrecked.

Get that?  My statistics FAVORED the fighter.  There's no debating the tactics either because all of the tactics were as optimal as your fighter could do (not moving out allows full attacks with claws which leads to more chance of being tripped and unable to full attack, etc.).

The match is over.  You lost.  Given the build you were supposed to fight in advance you still lost.  Fighter isn't on the same level as PW.  GET OVER IT.
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carnivore

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #51 on: December 09, 2008, 06:25:47 PM »
You can't take ten on attack rolls.  Weighted average is the only way to actually run these things.  I gave your fighter one extra assumed "I didn't hit you touch AC" more than statistics would allow for the bad luck scenario and your fighter still gets his shit wrecked.
thats why i originally wanted a Neutral DM.. and use online dice rolling.... and then i wanted the builds checked, but even without that....

you are correct that i did not take range increments into consideration... however you cant touch me.... look at the Stats again:

Fighter Touch AC = AC 20(base 10 +6 dex +1 size +3 Dodge)

but, if that is how weighted averages work..... then i will adjust the build to use a Crit focused build... because every attack will be a crit, based on your Weighted Averages method

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Get that?  My statistics FAVORED the fighter.  There's no debating the tactics either because all of the tactics were as optimal as your fighter could do (not moving out allows full attacks with claws which leads to more chance of being tripped and unable to full attack, etc.).
for a PW 6 ... full attack consists of a single attack, with Bite of the Wolf you get 2 attacks... so what... you cant hit me with either attack
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The match is over.  You lost.  Given the build you were supposed to fight in advance you still lost.  Fighter isn't on the same level as PW.  GET OVER IT.
no all we have determined is that an outside person needs to run a combat between the two of us.....


in addition ... if you want to try using Weighted Average... then you need to do something else... for Tripping... you think that if you have a 5% chance to hit that means you trip every time you attack... WRONG


if you really want Weighted Averages.... i can work with them... and make another build to try if you want


 :D
« Last Edit: December 09, 2008, 06:34:00 PM by carnivore »

Vasja

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #52 on: December 09, 2008, 06:44:58 PM »
you are correct that i did not take range increments into consideration... however you cant touch me.... look at the Stats again:

Fighter Touch AC = AC 20(base 10 +6 dex +1 size +3 Dodge)

If you really want to take -4 on your attack to add +3 to your defense, go ahead.

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but, if that is how weighted averages work..... then i will adjust the build to use a Crit focused build... because every attack will be a crit, based on your Weighted Averages method
Not every attack will be a crit. The weighted averages method takes the probability of making a hit and multiplying it by the average damage. This, over many rounds, will give you close to the value you expected. A crit-based build may not actually gain you anything, as the average may end up the same.

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for a PW 6 ... full attack consists of a single attack, with Bite of the Wolf you get 2 attacks... so what... you cant hit me with either attack
He can hit you with both attacks. Even with a touch AC of 20, he can still hit you (4 BAB + 5 Str -1 Size). Hit damage per round will out-pace you.

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no all we have determined is that an outside person needs to run a combat between the two of us.....

in addition ... if you want to try using Weighted Average... then you need to do something else... for Tripping... you think that if you have a 5% chance to hit that means you trip every time you attack... WRONG

if you really want Weighted Averages.... i can work with them... and make another build to try if you want

He does not have a 5% chance to trip you. He has a 40% chance of hitting your touch AC. After the second round, he has a 95%+ chance of tripping after that hit. Then he regular attacks your touch AC. Your problem is getting up and doing anything. You may pull off an attack each round, but between the AOO for using ranged and his two attacks a round, you are not staying up. You can't get out of his space, and round-by-round he will out-damage you.

And this is not very optimized. He could probably pump a few extra points into strength. And since most of the damage he takes comes from the first round, he could simply stay out of reach for those first two rounds, then close in easily (with a higher base speed).
« Last Edit: December 09, 2008, 07:17:17 PM by Vasja »

Ubernoob

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #53 on: December 09, 2008, 07:11:00 PM »
I was going to reply to carnivore, but it seems that Vasja is perfectly competent at reading my mind.  Thank you.  +fu for that.
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Ubernoob

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #54 on: December 10, 2008, 12:23:23 AM »
Y'know what I just realized?  Move animal affinity in front of expansion.  All the sudden the PW hits 100% of the time by taking ten.
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fliprushman

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #55 on: December 10, 2008, 12:33:31 AM »
<Points to previous post.>

I don't think a neutral DM nor Dice rolls will change the out come of this fight.  It is about tactics.  The person who has the better tactics will win.  I mean, I could take two complete strangers that have not seen this argument and DM for them and the outcome would be just like I mentioned, the person with the better tactic would win.

This whole thread is pointless.  Any data that will be gained from it will be flawed because the human element.  If you could get a computer simulator, then run it 100 times, then that data would be conclusive but for that to even work, you would need a build that is average...No such build exists.
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Ubernoob

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #56 on: December 10, 2008, 12:36:13 AM »
<Points to previous post.>

I don't think a neutral DM nor Dice rolls will change the out come of this fight.  It is about tactics.  The person who has the better tactics will win.  I mean, I could take two complete strangers that have not seen this argument and DM for them and the outcome would be just like I mentioned, the person with the better tactic would win.

This whole thread is pointless.  Any data that will be gained from it will be flawed because the human element.  If you could get a computer simulator, then run it 100 times, then that data would be conclusive but for that to even work, you would need a build that is average...No such build exists.
<Points to uber's first post in the thread>
Arena matches are stupid.

Are all in agreement that the same game test is a better indicator than PvP arenas?
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juton

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #57 on: December 10, 2008, 07:38:05 AM »
I was thinking of ways to make a fighter work, I think the main problem is speed. In light armour a PW can go 90 feet a round, a fighter has to run which denies their dex. A fighter could do this on a horse however, maybe the best build for this would be a mounted archer, assuming a PW's hustle can't be used on a mount.

Unless you can dictate the range you will lose. Generally, the fighter can't dictate the range, it will lose.

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #58 on: December 10, 2008, 10:32:34 AM »
I was thinking of ways to make a fighter work, I think the main problem is speed. In light armour a PW can go 90 feet a round, a fighter has to run which denies their dex. A fighter could do this on a horse however, maybe the best build for this would be a mounted archer, assuming a PW's hustle can't be used on a mount.

Unless you can dictate the range you will lose. Generally, the fighter can't dictate the range, it will lose.
Bravo... you really get it. No amount of damage and the such will make up for a lack of ability to control or dictate the terms. Whoever has the most options for dictating the terms of the battle should win.
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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #59 on: December 10, 2008, 01:59:43 PM »
To all this take 10 crap and roll crap... Learn to analyze probability, else you will commit Vorpal Fail. Kkthxbye.
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