Author Topic: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge  (Read 87042 times)

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Tshern

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #140 on: December 15, 2008, 12:11:03 PM »
Ready and waiting.

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carnivore

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #141 on: December 15, 2008, 12:30:58 PM »
  If Tshern is still available...
Then I accept your challenge.
what level would you like to start?

 :D

Amadi

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #142 on: December 15, 2008, 12:44:40 PM »
Allright, let me try and end this argument here.

Take a look at Feat: Expanded Knowledge - Learn extra power of one level lower than your current maximum.
Take a look at Erudite class feature: Convert Spell to Power, understand that all arcane spells are now available as powers.
Take a look at Geomancer class feature: Spell versatility, understand that all divine spells are now available as arcane spells.

Understand that with Expanded Knowledge, Psychic Warriors have access to any and all spells and powers below level 5th in some classes spell list in the whole game.

What this means? Access to Invisibility from Telflammar Shadowlord as level 1 spell, Improved as second, Haste as level 1 power from Trapsmith, etc. Divine Power, even. Now, with Invisibility the PsyWar can buff himself for practically unlimited time. Improved Invisibility from level 7 onwards means that fighter will have to invest in way to see invisible or get autoscrewed, etc.

Now that we know that PsyWars can manifest Divine Power and well, just about anything, I leave it for your imaginations to prove that figher can't compete.  :rollseyes

BowenSilverclaw

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #143 on: December 15, 2008, 12:55:40 PM »
Nice...
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RobbyPants

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #144 on: December 15, 2008, 01:01:59 PM »
Full BAB certainly gets rid of a lot of the fighter-would-win argument.
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Midnight_v

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #145 on: December 15, 2008, 01:38:05 PM »
Allright, let me try and end this argument here.

Take a look at Feat: Expanded Knowledge - Learn extra power of one level lower than your current maximum.
Take a look at Erudite class feature: Convert Spell to Power, understand that all arcane spells are now available as powers.
Take a look at Geomancer class feature: Spell versatility, understand that all divine spells are now available as arcane spells.

Understand that with Expanded Knowledge, Psychic Warriors have access to any and all spells and powers below level 5th in some classes spell list in the whole game.

What this means? Access to Invisibility from Telflammar Shadowlord as level 1 spell, Improved as second, Haste as level 1 power from Trapsmith, etc. Divine Power, even. Now, with Invisibility the PsyWar can buff himself for practically unlimited time. Improved Invisibility from level 7 onwards means that fighter will have to invest in way to see invisible or get autoscrewed, etc.

Now that we know that PsyWars can manifest Divine Power and well, just about anything, I leave it for your imaginations to prove that figher can't compete.  :rollseyes
Wow.. fu for you!
Quote
what level would you like to start?
6. Just use the original post of this thread for the rules. Seem reaonsble. I won't go all spell to power... though that is amazing win for us. . .
« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 01:42:56 PM by Midnight_v »
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Surreal

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #146 on: December 15, 2008, 02:03:56 PM »
And this is why I hate the CO approach to casting sometimes... just because a spell/power was printed, then placed on a secondary list somewhere else, then converted into a different list somewhere else again through a specific class feature, etc etc... then people assume that it is automatically available for them to cherry pick.
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Midnight_v

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #147 on: December 15, 2008, 02:25:49 PM »
And this is why I hate the CO approach to casting sometimes... just because a spell/power was printed, then placed on a secondary list somewhere else, then converted into a different list somewhere else again through a specific class feature, etc etc... then people assume that it is automatically available for them to cherry pick.
s'okay... it's cool. I pretty much file that one under dirty tricks myself. No need to hate... either way is a valid interpretation. I won't use that one but it's not invalid perse. Kind of unfair, and really I'd think it'd violate the spirit of the rules here. Fair enough?
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Ubernoob

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #148 on: December 15, 2008, 02:31:20 PM »
yes .... it is exactly how Raptor Arrows work.... they are Bane(+2 Enhancement and +2d6 damage) vs any Target

all the builds proposed have weaknesses that can be exploited(low HP, Low Saves, Slow, Non-flying,etc...).... that is not at issue... the Output is at issue....

you taking this thread seriously is irrelavant unless you provide useful feedback .... if i wanted only your opinion, i would PM you with the builds for your consideration..... i am posting these for all to see, critique, and possibly LEARN from.

i already realize that you dont think the fighter is a very good Class .... however, i am not interested in your opinion of the class .... just any useful feedback on the Build

 :D


Open up MIC.  You can't make two attacks with a single raptor arrow in a round.  Learn to read.
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skydragonknight

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #149 on: December 15, 2008, 02:38:36 PM »
Quote
:D
Open up MIC.  You can't make two attacks with a single raptor arrow in a round.  Learn to read.

The ideal is to try to have 1 Raptor Arrow per attack in a full attack, as nothing prohibits the use of multiple Raptor Arrows. Still, with Rapid Shot and what not a Fighter wouldn't have enough RAs to cover all his attacks until around 9/10th level without seriously shortchanging himself on his other gear.
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woodenbandman

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #150 on: December 15, 2008, 02:52:26 PM »
[spoiler]And this is why I hate the CO approach to casting sometimes... just because a spell/power was printed, then placed on a secondary list somewhere else, then converted into a different list somewhere else again through a specific class feature, etc etc... then people assume that it is automatically available for them to cherry pick.[/spoiler]

Because it is.  ;)

On a side note, this is theoretical optimization now, not practical optimization. In a class vs class situation, it's theoretical, but in a game situation, it goes into practical optimization, in which case the fighter still loses anyways.

Disclaimer: I think this is cheesy as hell. If this works, that means that all spell lists are irrelevant because you can get a Your Class/x/geomancer to make a scroll of Y and then you can cast any spell ever. In the context of a game, none of this would work, but we know that, and we do it anyway for science.

Ubernoob

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #151 on: December 15, 2008, 02:54:49 PM »
Quote
:D
Open up MIC.  You can't make two attacks with a single raptor arrow in a round.  Learn to read.

The ideal is to try to have 1 Raptor Arrow per attack in a full attack, as nothing prohibits the use of multiple Raptor Arrows. Still, with Rapid Shot and what not a Fighter wouldn't have enough RAs to cover all his attacks until around 9/10th level without seriously shortchanging himself on his other gear.
And if you'll look on his sheet you'll notice that he only pays for one raptor arrow, which is what I'm stating.
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skydragonknight

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #152 on: December 15, 2008, 03:08:18 PM »
And if you'll look on his sheet you'll notice that he only pays for one raptor arrow, which is what I'm stating.

Correct. I was just elaborating on what you said for Carnivore. I apologize for not specifying that it for him.
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emaNsdrawkcaB

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #153 on: December 15, 2008, 04:05:21 PM »
To Amadi's post:

I don't think that Geomancer's Spell Versatility works that way. The arcane spells that you can cast would count as divine for certain aspects of casting, but only if you can cast divine already. But even so, the ability for arcane spells as powers is pretty beastly. So no Divine Power, but Invisibility and Haste are good.


Ubernoob

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #154 on: December 15, 2008, 04:46:26 PM »
And if you'll look on his sheet you'll notice that he only pays for one raptor arrow, which is what I'm stating.

Correct. I was just elaborating on what you said for Carnivore. I apologize for not specifying that it for him.
Ah, thank you.
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Amadi

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #155 on: December 15, 2008, 06:43:16 PM »
To Amadi's post:

I don't think that Geomancer's Spell Versatility works that way. The arcane spells that you can cast would count as divine for certain aspects of casting, but only if you can cast divine already. But even so, the ability for arcane spells as powers is pretty beastly. So no Divine Power, but Invisibility and Haste are good.

This doesn't matter, it's stated that: "Any arcane spell.". You don't need to be able to cast it, you don't need to have anyone nearby that could cast it. You just need to prove that it's castable. Therefore:

Wizard 20 / Druid 10 / Geomancer 10 - character could cast any divine spell he knows as arcane spell, therefore it's an arcane spell, and therefore valid for Spell to Power. Of course we wouldn't use druid, we would use Archivist, as archivists can cast all divine spells if they can find them in scroll form. (And all arcane spells as divine, due to the same trick or the trick with the feat that allows you to cast an arcane spell as divine 1/day/2 caster levels.) I understand that no sane DM would allow this, though. I know I wouldn't, except if I was the DM and wanted to add extra flavor to an NPC in form of prestidigitation-power or something. :D

==========

I wonder if it would be possible to use Acidic Spittle for the Psychic Warrior? While it'd be expensive in feats, Azurin Psychic Warrior with Shape Soulmeld, Expanded Soulmeld Capacity and Extra Essentia could invest 3 essentia into it, making it 4d6 damage as ranged touch. Add to that the psionic shot-line, if possible, and it should become rather efficient in terms of hitting the fighter. Provokes AoOs, but levitate might fix that. Real problem is the range of 30ft.. Meh, I guess I'm just in love with that soulmeld currently, you can't even share it with your Psicrystal, if you have any.

Surreal

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #156 on: December 15, 2008, 06:52:21 PM »
Seriously, why are people still debating this whole thing? Are why must things be treated as absolutes?

Can we not make some generalizations?
- early levels: give the slight nod to fighters since they have a higher hp/bab and a feat advantage; yeah psywars have powers, but a very limited selection and low PP; maybe give them the match if they burn them all for a specific fight. I'm going to arbitrarily say 60/40 for the fighter
- mid level: I'll say favour swings towards the PW here since they now have a larger power selection and useful PP pool... say 45/55 now.
- high level: both have their tricks, but PW has more, meh... 30/70
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Midnight_v

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #157 on: December 15, 2008, 07:35:58 PM »
Seriously, why are people still debating this whole thing? Are why must things be treated as absolutes?

Can we not make some generalizations?
- early levels: give the slight nod to fighters since they have a higher hp/bab and a feat advantage; yeah psywars have powers, but a very limited selection and low PP; maybe give them the match if they burn them all for a specific fight. I'm going to arbitrarily say 60/40 for the fighter
- mid level: I'll say favour swings towards the PW here since they now have a larger power selection and useful PP pool... say 45/55 now.
- high level: both have their tricks, but PW has more, meh... 30/70
Its all abou the tier system then you know? Carnivores so persistant about something most of us dropped months ago... its like his 3d thread about it. . . *shrugh* I guess we could just ignore it...

How are we calculating damage?
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woodenbandman

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #158 on: December 15, 2008, 10:02:46 PM »
How would a chameleon geomancer be? Would it be worthwhile?

carnivore

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #159 on: December 15, 2008, 11:11:59 PM »
Open up MIC.  You can't make two attacks with a single raptor arrow in a round.  Learn to read.
did you actually look at what i posted..... i made only 1 attack with a raptor Arrow per round.... the other attacks were with Razorfeather Arrows... the damage shows it... did you even look?


if Tshern runs it, he will probably use an Online Dice rolling system .... he could use Average Damage also... i dont care which is used

 :D