Author Topic: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge  (Read 87047 times)

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Midnight_v

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #120 on: December 14, 2008, 01:02:36 AM »
I take the side of whoever is right. Here, that happens to be Uber. Kindly shut the fuck up and stop trying to start shit. This is becoming a habit of yours.
Says the guy who goes around mouthing off so much he repeatedly gets warned/banned. You guys remind me of wannabe street-punk gang-bangers who like to talk trash at everyone to try and look tough.

If you'll note, I said psiwarriors are better. So who's side am I on? Oh, that's right, the same one as you. I'm just not a complete douchebag about it. There is something about rational, polite discourse that you guys seem to not understand, and it gets on my nerves seeing your bullshit splattered all over the place in every thread I click on. So please, continue acting like a dick, and maybe you'll get banned here too.

Also, Carnivore has been one of the most consistently polite and helpful members of the D&D optimization boards for as long as I can remember. He's patiently helped tons of people with very detailed suggestions, while you guys mostly go around insulting people and bragging about yourselves. You may not agree with everything he does, but he's a competent optimizer. He just doesn't always use the most broken shit possible for every application. So I think you, and especially uber, are doing a disservice to the community with the way you guys seem to jump on him whenever he posts lately. So why don't you guys learn to be polite, or go somewhere where all the other assholes on the internet hang out, like the gaming den or 4chan?
I only tire of people trying to be the polite police. Basically starting a war. Asking them to change is like asking you to change. Likely to get a response of Fuck you... probbably. However...  it clutters up the thread and its off topic so take the corrective action in fu... or a duel of wits... or pm that type shit. Just... please don't derail this in to a behavoiral class instead of talking about the Fighter/psiwar. I'm not interested in a "fest" right here in this thread.
.....
Aside...
Why are you playing the devil's advocate, anyway?
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Ubernoob

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #121 on: December 14, 2008, 01:10:04 AM »
Why are you playing the devil's advocate, anyway?
I'd hazard to guess that it is because the people defending the PW really understood how to use the class while the guy defending the fighter didn't know how to use it or the fighter exceptionally well.  Sort of a protecting the weak type thing.

Paladins do it.  I can't for the life of me understand it.
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Lycanthromancer

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #122 on: December 14, 2008, 01:32:22 AM »

The fighter can do a few things the psychic warrior can't: he can make extra attacks earlier (gish!),
A psychic warrior can get three attacks as early as level 1, (Two-Weapon Fighting + bite of the wolf), or at level 2 without a feat (bite of the wolf + claws of the beast). So psychic warriors actually get them earlier.

(If you share those powers with a psicrystal, he can technically get MORE per round, but that'd be overkill, now, wouldn't it.)

Sorry, but that's a no-go.

he can qualify for things that require a higher bab earlier (feats and prestige classes), and he can count as your favored class for multiclassing purposes (dwarf!). It's only really useful because of its full base attack, which has its uses.
Sorry, but the psychic warrior can do those things too. I specified things that the psywar couldn't do, and he can do those (human or half-elf!). It might take a couple of extra levels, but a level in psywar is much more potent than a level in fighter, so it's not like you're losing out on anything.

Fighter is a dip-class; the higher BAB means you can dump it even faster than you otherwise would.

Psychic warrior? Not so much.

That really doesn't count either. Sorry.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2008, 02:11:51 AM by Lycanthromancer »
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fliprushman

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #123 on: December 14, 2008, 05:01:15 AM »

The fighter can do a few things the psychic warrior can't: he can make extra attacks earlier (gish!),
A psychic warrior can get three attacks as early as level 1, (Two-Weapon Fighting + bite of the wolf), or at level 2 without a feat (bite of the wolf + claws of the beast). So psychic warriors actually get them earlier.

(If you share those powers with a psicrystal, he can technically get MORE per round, but that'd be overkill, now, wouldn't it.)

Sorry, but that's a no-go.

Well yes, a PW can get 3 attacks at first level...but there really isn't much of a chance for him to hit with those.  3 attacks at 2nd level is a better way to go if you don't mind blowing your PP payload.

Quote from: Lycanthromancer
he can qualify for things that require a higher bab earlier (feats and prestige classes), and he can count as your favored class for multiclassing purposes (dwarf!). It's only really useful because of its full base attack, which has its uses.
Sorry, but the psychic warrior can do those things too. I specified things that the psywar couldn't do, and he can do those (human or half-elf!). It might take a couple of extra levels, but a level in psywar is much more potent than a level in fighter, so it's not like you're losing out on anything.

Fighter is a dip-class; the higher BAB means you can dump it even faster than you otherwise would.

Psychic warrior? Not so much.

That really doesn't count either. Sorry.

Yes, fighter is a good dip class and it's usual purpose is for the feats, but so is a PW.  PW actually can be a worse option because you lose BAB, HD, and the powers are not really worth it if you don't plan to stick with the class for a few levels.

So before you decide to pick apart someone's argument, make sure you know what your are talking about.
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Ubernoob

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #124 on: December 14, 2008, 05:10:50 AM »
Having a completely frontloaded progression isn't exactly a good thing.  As for being viable:
Human PW 1
TWF, CE, Improved Trip, bite of the wolf known

13 int, 15 dex, let's say 14 str and 14 wis (yes, MAD)

+0/+0/-3 against touch ACs and a pretty solid chance to trip (srsly, +6 on the strength check is pretty respectable when your primary enemies are small sized) and then get +4 to his attacks.

Yes, tripping is a good tactic for PWs.  This is a fact.
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fliprushman

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #125 on: December 14, 2008, 05:42:49 AM »
Ubernoob, that would be a great build for a game that doesn't go over 5th level. ;)  But a trip fighter with only two attacks would have a much better time tripping than that build(basically because he won't be MAD).  But I still love this build and want to try it out somewhere now.  Thanks for sharing.
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Ubernoob

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #126 on: December 14, 2008, 05:45:07 AM »
Ubernoob, that would be a great build for a game that doesn't go over 5th level. ;)  But a trip fighter with only two attacks would have a much better time tripping than that build(basically because he won't be MAD).  But I still love this build and want to try it out somewhere now.  Thanks for sharing.

Well, it's playable is all I'm saying.  Improved trip is good for everyone.
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X-Codes

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #127 on: December 14, 2008, 09:19:31 AM »
Thus the no items: Final Destination comment. But I guess if you've never met professional tourney fags that's not as evocative.
...wait, that was an SSB reference?  I never play SSB like that (because it's gay), so it must not have come to my attention.

Now I'm all ready to go into rant mode about how gay no items SSB is.

Midnight_v

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #128 on: December 14, 2008, 10:31:24 AM »
Thus the no items: Final Destination comment. But I guess if you've never met professional tourney fags that's not as evocative.
...wait, that was an SSB reference?  I never play SSB like that (because it's gay), so it must not have come to my attention.

Now I'm all ready to go into rant mode about how gay no items SSB is.
HA HA HA this thread is made of laughs :lol
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Sunic_Flames

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #129 on: December 14, 2008, 10:45:43 AM »
I take the side of whoever is right. Here, that happens to be Uber. Kindly shut the fuck up and stop trying to start shit. This is becoming a habit of yours.
Says the guy who goes around mouthing off so much he repeatedly gets warned/banned. You guys remind me of wannabe street-punk gang-bangers who like to talk trash at everyone to try and look tough.

Wow, Epic Troll is Epic. Seriously, why so butthurt? Need a wambulance? Perhaps a one way ticket to the Paizo forums with all your whining about politeness? It's not a hard point to understand. I side with whoever happens to be correct. As Uber is usually correct, this means I am usually on the same side. However there is no special loyalty there. If it were carnivore that was right and Uber that was wrong I would be siding with carnivore. So your strawmans and general bullshit aside I side with Competence. Again, kindly shut the fuck up.
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carnivore

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #130 on: December 14, 2008, 06:03:38 PM »
Fighter submitted for comparison to jutons Archer or  Lycanthromancers Archer

Warforged ScoutFighter 6

AttributesFeats:
1st lvl: Mithral Body
Point Blank Shot(fighter Bonus)
2nd lvl: Rapid Shot(Fighter bonus)
3rd lvl: Weapon Focus(Composite Longbow)
4th lvl: Weapon Specialization(Composite Longbow)
6th lvl: True Believer(Ehlonna)
Imp Initiative(Fighter bonus)

Items:(13000gp)
1205gp +1 Darkwood Buckler
2000gp +1 Ring of Protection
750gp Belt of Healing
1000gp Boots of landing
700gp Elvencraft Masterwork Composite Longbow
6006gp Raptor Arrow
1000gp 20 x Razorfeather Composite Longbow Arrows(Adamantine and Keen)
600gp Least Crystal of Arrow Deflection(+5 AC vs Ranged attacks)

HP 55
Saves:8 fort/ 7 ref/ 0 Will
AC 24(29 vs ranged) = Base 10 +5 Dex + 5 Armor +2 Shield +1 Size+1 deflection
Touch AC 17
Flatfooted AC 18(23 vs Ranged)
Fighting Defensively(-4 attack,+3 AC)
Full Defense(no Attacks,+6 AC)

Initiative: +5 Dex+4 Imp Initiative = +9 initiative

Ranged Attack bonus:
BAB +6 +5 Dex +1 Size +1 Enhancement +1 WF= +14
Full Attack:
+14/+9

Full Attack with Rapid Shot and Raptor Arrow:
+14(raptor arrow)/+12/+7

+1 to attack if target within 30'

Damage:
Razorfeather Composite longbow Arrow(1d8)= 4 +2 Weapon specialize = 6 damage/ 19-20 x3
Raptor Arrow 1d8= 4 +(2d6 = 7) +2 +3 enhancement= +16 damage/ 20 x3

+1 to Damage if target within 30'


how does it stack up

 :D
« Last Edit: December 14, 2008, 10:12:29 PM by carnivore »

Ubernoob

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #131 on: December 14, 2008, 06:45:15 PM »
1) That's not how raptor arrows work.
2) It gets raped by anything that targets will saves (lots) because it has +0 will save at a level when the standard will save DC is at least 15 (10+1/2 HD + 14 cha) and tends closer towards 20 (10 +1/2 HD + 16 cha +2 ability focus).

Stop proposing characters that would get laughed out of a game and I'll take this thread seriously, Carnivore.
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carnivore

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #132 on: December 14, 2008, 09:29:08 PM »
yes .... it is exactly how Raptor Arrows work.... they are Bane(+2 Enhancement and +2d6 damage) vs any Target

all the builds proposed have weaknesses that can be exploited(low HP, Low Saves, Slow, Non-flying,etc...).... that is not at issue... the Output is at issue....

you taking this thread seriously is irrelavant unless you provide useful feedback .... if i wanted only your opinion, i would PM you with the builds for your consideration..... i am posting these for all to see, critique, and possibly LEARN from.

i already realize that you dont think the fighter is a very good Class .... however, i am not interested in your opinion of the class .... just any useful feedback on the Build

 :D


fliprushman

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #133 on: December 14, 2008, 10:02:02 PM »
How are you getting 3 feats at level one?  You should only have 2.

What is the sourcebook for True Believer?
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carnivore

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #134 on: December 14, 2008, 10:12:08 PM »
actually the second feat is lvl 2 Fighter bonus feat, will identify correctly and adjust post

True Believer

carnivore

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #135 on: December 14, 2008, 11:15:01 PM »
just so you can see that i bear the PW no ill will .... i have made a PW build of my own for you to consider:


Human
Psychic Warrior 6

Attributes: (32 pt Buy)
16 Str(15+1 level)
14 Dex
16 Con
10 Int
14 Wis
8 Cha

Feats:
Improved Initiative(Human bonus)
Power Attack(PW bonus)
1st lvl: Link Power
2nd lvl: Weapon Focus(Bite) (PW bonus)
3rd lvl: Psionic Meditation
5th lvl: Psionic Fist(PW bonus)
6th lvl: Improved Natural Attack(Bite)




Powers:
1st lvl:
Grip of Iron
Expansion
Bite of the Wolf

2nd lvl:
Hustle
Concealing Amorpha
Strength of My Enemy

Skills: 27 skill points ..... will assume also using Skilled City Dweller web enhancement(exchange Ride for Tumble as class Skills)

9 ranks Concentration
8 ranks Tumble
5 ranks Autohypnosis
5 ranks Jump


Skill Tricks:Items (13k gp)
4000gp Gauntlets of War(+3 enhance to damage)
4100gp Armbands of might(+2 All Str chks, +2 PA if Min -2 attack)
1400gp Steadfast Boots(+4 vs Bullrush,Trip, Overrun, any 2 handed wpn, considered Set vs Charge)
1009gp Deep crystal Guisarme(+1 enhance to Attack: MW)
1100gp Deep crystal Composite Longbow (+1 enhance to Attack: MW)
600gp Half Plate(+7 AC,+0 max Dex)
205gp Darkwood Buckler
600gp Least Crystal of Arrow Deflection(+5 AC vs Ranged attacks)
100gp 2x Tanglefoot bags
5gp 100 Composite longbow Arrows



Power points:
11 base +6 bonus = 17 PP

HP = 48 Hit points
Saves: +8 fort/ +4 ref/ +4 Will
AC 18(23 vs ranged) = Base 10 + 7 Armor +1 Shield
Touch AC 12
Flatfooted AC 18(23 vs ranged)
Fighting Defensively(-4 attack,+3 AC)
Full Defense(no Attacks,+6 AC)

Initiative: +2 Dex+4 Imp Initiative = +6 initiative

Attack bonus:
BAB +4 +3 Str = +7

+8 Full Attack with Bite
+8 Full Attack with Guisarme
+7 Full Attack with Composite longbow(+6 if large)

Damage:
Composite longbow 1d8(2d6 if large) = 4(7 if large) Damage... at range
Guisarme 2d4(2d6 if large) +3 Str +3 enhancement= 11(14 if large) Damage... and Trip attacks
Bite of Wolf 4d6(6d6 if large) +3 Str +2d6 Psionic Fist= 24(32 if large) Damage

Action sequence:
no matter who wins Initiative:
Immediate Action : Grip of Iron linked to Concealing Amorpha = 4 pp .................................... net effect = +4 Enhancement Grapple , 20% Miss vs all attacks, and can Manifest Powers and Refocus without getting AoO due to Concealment

Round 1:
Move Action: Refocus
Standard Action: bite of the wolf linked to expansion (augmented to 10min/level) = 4 pp....... net effect = +0 Attack/ +1 damage/ -1 AC, +5' reach, Additional Attack(Secondary) or great Primary Attack

Round 2:
Move Action: Refocus
Standard Action: Strength of My Enemy(longbow) linked to Strength of My Enemy(Bite) = 6 PP

3PP left .... can use for Deep Crystal, or Hustle, or Strength of My Enemy(Guisarme)

Tactics.... Close(Charge with Trip if possible) and Engage in melee(Trip if possible, then Bite continuously as Single Primary Attack).... or if opponent withdraws from Melee, use Ranged Attacks ....refocus and use Psionic Fist with Bite every time


 :D

Lycanthromancer

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #136 on: December 15, 2008, 04:04:04 AM »
Your fighter's class doesn't help with protecting you from poison. Your race does. My class allows me to use poison. Yours (fighter) doesn't help at all.

Thus, fail. :P
« Last Edit: December 15, 2008, 04:13:56 AM by Lycanthromancer »
[spoiler]Masculine men like masculine things. Masculine men are masculine. Therefore, liking masculine men is masculine.

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______________________________________
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My awesome poster collection. (Warning, some are NSFW.)
Agita's awesome poster collection.
[spoiler]
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Which book is Lycanthromancer in?
Lyca ... is in the book. Yes he is.
 :D
shit.. concerning psionics optimization, lycan IS the book
[/spoiler]

emaNsdrawkcaB

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #137 on: December 15, 2008, 05:55:55 AM »
I am surprised no Dungeoncrashers have entered the scene yet.

Exactly what I was thinking. If the Dungeoncrasher variant is available in this dispute I'm fairly certain that Fighters take the cake and eat it too. And by cake I mean Psychic Warriors.

emaNsdrawkcaB

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #138 on: December 15, 2008, 06:22:04 AM »
...no matter who wins Initiative...

Immediate Actions require you to not be flat footed. If the Dungeoncrasher does win Initiative, with 48 HP, you're probably going to die in one hit.

Midnight_v

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Re: Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge
« Reply #139 on: December 15, 2008, 11:05:04 AM »
Quote
Psychic Warrior vs Fighter challenge

After a recent thread about Psychic Warriors .... it seems to me that many people have a mistaken view of Psychic Warriors. They believe that the PW is a strong class .... and that it is far better than any class below it in the Tier system. The arguments seemed to me to be that it could dominate in Combat over lower tiered classes. This quote really botherd me:

Quote
Basically, psychic warriors do have the numbers to be very solid combatants, they do have the ability to pick two areas of solid competency by 7, three by 12, and four by 18 so have solid versatilty for role, and have enough out of combat ability to be useful.  Basically psychic warriors are as good or better combatants as crusaders and warblades (better than swordsages) and offer out of combat on par with swordsages and scouts.
I dont think that is True... in fact i believe that a Single Classed Fighter can beat a Single classed PW in Combat. to that end:

 i propose to conduct a contest between a Single classed Fighter and PW of equal ECL with equal Money, in an Arena style event.... even though this allows the PW to use Nova Tactics, i believe it will make no difference.

i will make the fighter Build with tactics and will send it to Tshern(Neutral DM) .... when someone wants to challenge the Fighter, you make the PW build and send it to Tshern... he will quote both Builds in a post so everyone can see them at the same time(thus nobody will prepare for a specific build... just make the best build you can , and see if it can survive what i make)


is anyone interested?.... i would like to start with an ECL 6 build first..... and progress to any level you would like, later.

This is not an attempt to Troll, i am serious .... i believe that i can make a Fighter that can beat a PW at any level ..... this will show that the very thing in which PWs are supposed to be so good at, is False: they are worse than a Fighter(ranked 5th tier).



Rules:
-Any 3.5 WOTC book can be used ... or official 3.5 Web material
-32pt Buy
-No LA Buyoff
-ECL aggreed at start(xp for that ECL only... if you craft you will be at a lower level:
exa: if a Half Giant PW wanted to take the feat: CRAFT UNIVERSAL ITEM..... and made some of his equipment.... he would then be only 4th lvl PW, if he was Human he would be PW 5th, you cannot craft more than the XP at the bottom of the next level(I.E. if it is an ECL 6 contest, crafting cannot make your XP total go below 5th lvl))
-No aging characters
-No Pun-Pun
-No infinite loops
-No obsessively abusive things (like chuck)
-No Leadership
-Standard Wealth (No Hirelings, No animals, No candle of invocation, No PAO, No Ancestral Relic)
-Average HD
-No Magic Item discounts for things like class/race/skills/etc or using things like mage slayer to reduce the minimum CL for items for items purchased ...
-No Consumable items(Scrolls,Wands,Potions,Power Stones,Dorjes,etc...), items that have charges per day that are renewed are allowed(Belt of Healing, Belt of Battle, Orb of Bodily renewal, etc..)
-No purchasing of class abilities (spells, frenzy, etc) from NPCs.
-No Pre-Buffing, except those that last 12 Hours or Longer.
-No Synchronicity
-Power Link Shards can only add additional PP for Augment up to ML Cap



Arena
both Combatants Start in a 600' x 600' arena standing 70' apart ... non descript ... with random terrain


any takers? ..... i will try to address everyone who wants to try ....
If Tshern is still available...
Then I accept your challenge.
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