Attempting the factotum

[Alastar]

Hello.

A new game is starting in witch we are going to play a roguish group.  Social interoction and wicked plans will be our bread and butter.
Special rules:
No main spellcasters, exceptionnally the bard is allowed.  I considered going chameleon but then decided agaisn't it, as i already played an incantatrix wizard in that dm's previous game, i wanna show him i can rock the clock without too much magic.

So far we have:

-Me, a factotum, i'm considering going the whole martial focused theme with iajutsu focus and warblade. Main role: skill monkey.
-The party face: Charisma based character, starting bard but probly going a bit of paladin of freedom and marshal to get his charisma skills high and nice, and attack using charisma.
-Urban ranger, will be our main tracker and ranged character (me and the bard will be front lined if we come to blows)
-A fourth guy, we don't know what he'll do.

I was considering maybe going factotum 13/warblade 7.  Probly not in that order, probly going to go 2-3 levels of warblade at level 4 to get in some good maneuvers.  ALso considered going sowrdsage instead, to get int to AC at least once, maybe more factotum levels.  Also,swordsages have powerful strikes, and those strikes are standard actions.  That,s pretty good with factotum.  Maybe a tripper, bullrusher swordsage then, using brains over brawn.

Another thing i considered is factotum 8, swordsage 2, iajutsu master 8, swordsage +2.  Going ronin style rogue, but I'm not sure it's that good.

I don't really have an outline, i'm still gathering information.  could you guys help me out by throwing out ideas?

[Soda]

Just give us books allowed and the levels you'll be playing at.

Here's the old Factotum Handbook for ideas. The new one isn't finished yet.

[JaronK]

First of all, I think if you want to go the Iajuitsu Master route, 5 levels is probably plenty.  That's where the good ability is.  Second, I'd pick Swordsage over Warblade.  While Warblade is a better gestalt (Int Synergy) I think Swordsage is better in general, especially with those Setting Sun trip manuevers (Dex plus Int to trip!).  Plus, if you're skillmonkeying around Shadow Hand is great for stealth.  Cloak of Deception is wonderful generally, and when combined with Shadow Jaunt you've got your stealth mobility handled.

Generally, the Gnome Quickrazor is probably the best weapon to use with Iajuitsu Focus.  You don't get Int to AC with it and Iajuitsu Master, but the automatic draw and sheath is well worth it... plus it doesn't use up your hands when not fighting.  Feycraft (DMG II) helps a lot here, as it lets you avoid taking Weapon Finesse and thus saves you a feat for more Fonts of Inspiration or Darkstalker or whatever.  Eventually, the Blurstrike enchantment will be a good idea, and you may want to consider using Two Weapon Fighting with these guys, especially if you've got access to Tiger Claw manuevers.  Pouncing Charge + Dancing Mongoose with 5 base attacks (+15 BAB, TWF, ITWF) and full Iajuitsu Focus damage is quite impressive for a skillmonkey.

Craft Wonderous Items could really help you.  Skillmonkeys generally like having good magical tools, and without a caster to help you may have some trouble getting the ones you want.  CWI will help you there.

Make sure to take a few Fonts of Inspiration.  Three or four should be enough, but that means you don't have to worry about running out of Inspiration points ever.

Poison Use is another great route to take.  The Master of Poisons feat from Drow of the Underdark is great for this, and you can combine it with Minor Creation to get all the Black Lotus Poison you could ever want (just throw in 1 rank to Craft Poison to make the stuff with Cunning Knowledge).  Remember, it doesn't take a whole dose to cast the spell.  The Toxic weapon enchantment will also be useful with that one.

Imperious Command could be fun too.  You've got the skillpoints to spare, and you can take an extra standard action to render your foe Cowering, then full attack them while they're helpless.  Never Outnumbered helps with this too.  Eventually you could get some armor with the Fearsome enchantment (move action intimidates) and render foes cowering as a move action before throwing them as a standard action.

JaronK

[Alastar]

Good input, but i think my DM will enforce the regional setting of iajutsu focus.  I might go around with a katana strapped to my back and 2 gnome quickrazors snapped to my wrists.

All books and dragons are permitted.  No flaws.

We'll be level 2 at start, planning on going epic.

[woodenbandman]

Your DM is enforcing the regional setting of Iaijutsu focus (which doesn't really even exist), and he's going into epic? That seems just a BIT masturbatory that you can fly and climb through assholes but you can't learn how to focus your attack to deal more damage.

Don't forget to lug around a feycrafted spiked chain just so that you can trip on the fly without an AoO. 1 more open feat right there.

[jameswilliamogle]

Your DM is enforcing the regional setting of Iaijutsu focus (which doesn't really even exist), and he's going into epic? That seems just a BIT masturbatory that you can fly and climb through assholes but you can't learn how to focus your attack to deal more damage.

I LOL'd! 

[Alastar]

Bad news, iaijutsu focus is now banned, iajutsu master is too, Dm doesnt like oriental adventures.

So what now?  I'm considering a simple factotum 12/swordsage 8  build, using multiple standard actions to get in strong standard action strikes per round, as well as keeping the monstrous skills of both classes to be the ultimate skillmonkey.

I don't know exactly how it's going to go.  I'll probably go knowledge devotion, seeings as it's pretty easy to once a day get +3 to +%, and most of the time it's a free +1-+2 bonuses to attack and damage.

Thinking of a suitable feat progression, as well as to what weapon to go with, both look-wise and stats wise.

3-4 font of inspiration seems a pretty good thing, trip based setting sun attacks too.

[juton]

While Swordsage does has a lot of sneaky maneuvers maybe you should think of Warblade instead (as noted above). Wouldn't you be able to use cunning surge to get an extra standard attack, since the Warblade can recover it's maneuvers by making a standard attack the Warblade can use his most powerful maneuver(s) multiple times in a round.

And he can do it every time he gets in a new encounter.

[anomalousman]

I'd tend to go warblade as well.  There are a couple of good setting sun maneuvers, but I personally think the best ones are in Tiger Claw, Diamond Mind and Iron Heart.

And that way you have some extra int synergy, several more BAB and lots more hit points.  And a feat.

[JaronK]

Remember that you still can't recover manuevers in a round where you used one, so Warblade recovery won't save you that much.

I think, considering you want to go with manuevers, that a fear based concept might work well for you, in which case Factotum X/Unarmed Varient Swordsage Y is basically what you want to do... I'd go with more Factotum, personally, as getting spells and such is quite handy.  Get some Fearsome armor as fast as possible and use Imperious Command with Never Outnumbered to leave enemies Cowering, then use the manuever of your choice on them (and note that their dex is denied to AC, which is good for a lot of Shadow Hand tricks).   Setting Sun throws are great for this, as Brains Over Brawn will help.

A basic build would be Human Factotum 12/Swordsage 8 with Adaptive Style, Imperious Command, Darkstalker, Master of Poisons, Weapon Finesse, and Font of Inspiration X 3, though admittedly Factotum 16/Swordsage 4 might be better for the always on Int to AC (which stacks with the earlier Int to AC ability... and see if you can get Carmendine Monk to work with Swordsage levels.  Ask your DM).  With that build, you can use fear, poison, and manuevers, and you can be very much Int and Dex based, and that's all kinds of handy.  Just make good use of throws and fear in combat while supplimenting it with poison when that's an option and you should be good to go... and at the same time you're a great skillmonkey.

JaronK

[Alastar]

Hmmmm probly what I'm going to go for, probly won't be using all those feats.

I'll see about darkstalker, i'll wait to ''feel'' the kinda campaign before getting it.

I like the intimidate synergy, and yeah, I'm probly going to take swordsage because, well, it's fun to have your intel to AC twice.

CArmendine monk does work with swordsage.

I would like to get in shadow blade in there, since I'll be focusing mainly on dex and intel, heck I'm considering being a tiefling, since we're allowed level buyback.


Any suggestion of good maneuvers?

[Rebel7284]

If LA is allowed, may I suggest a Primordial Half Giant. -2 Str, -2 Dex, +4 Int, +4 Cha, +1 caster level for spell likes, a choice of good spell likes (omg invisibility), powerful build for more bonuses to trip and a bigger stick to hit people with.  Primordial template in secrets of xendrik.

[JaronK]

Personally, I love a bit of stealth, so with buyback I'd go with Dark Human or Shadow Human... Shadow Human is LA +2 and gives, eventually, fast healing and DR, both of which are great for a combat type, plus it also gives awesome stealth abilities.  I wouldn't do Tiefling... the extra human feat is worth far more than what Tiefling gives you, especially with the extra skillpoints.  If available, Strongheart Halfling might be good too, with Dark or Shadow thrown on. 

If Carmendine Monk works for Swordsages, that's awesome.  Find out what all it works on... is it just the Wis to AC, or does it also change the save DC stat for Shadow Hand manuevers and such?  That's important to know.

My favorite manuevers would be the throws (because they're dex checks and thus get Brains over Brawn), Cloak of Deception, Shadow Jaunt, Dancing Mongoose, Assassin's Stance, and Hunter's Stance.  Since you're not using Iajuitsu anyway, you might consider using Kukris, in which case Blood in the Water could be a lot of fun.

JaronK

[Alastar]

I was considering the lesser drow, for the +2 to dex and +2 intel. 

But it nets me one less feat....

[Alastar]

I've been considreing all of you guys ption, and i just thought of something, why not go both?

I could maybe take factotum 8/unarmed swordsage 2/Warblade 3/Master of nine 5/X 2

Sure it's feat heavy, but it would allow me to progress both?

Also, where's the font of inspiration feat, i can't find it anywhere.

[anomalousman]

I've been considreing all of you guys ption, and i just thought of something, why not go both?

I could maybe take factotum 8/unarmed swordsage 2/Warblade 3/Master of nine 5/X 2

Sure it's feat heavy, but it would allow me to progress both?

Also, where's the font of inspiration feat, i can't find it anywhere.

Font of inspiration: http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/frcc/20070606

Master of Nine is unfortunately just not worth it for the feats.  I have tried on multiple occasions, and it's just plain suboptimal - even in gestalt.  Still, if suboptimal is OK...

That said, swordsage 2 / warblade 3 is a fine plan.  Might I suggest Swordsage 4 / Warblade 1?  The skills are slightly better, you get wis to damage on some strikes (possibly Int, if carmadine can be altered that far).  And Warblade can give you the three key iron heart maneuvers in its first level.

[Alastar]

You mat suggest, indeed you may....

Seeing how font of inspiration works, I'm really at a standstill here for race.

On one had, lesser drow grants me +2 dex +2 int, both of whom are key class features of my build,  but on the other, font of inspiration has such potential when you stack it a few times that it's just plain old crazy what you can do with it, heck, at level 2 i could have 5 inspiration ponts per encounter as a human, vs 3 per encounter as a drow.  But my action points would be more powerful as a lesser drow.... hmmm...

Swordsage 4 seems like a must, considering how carmendine monk works with this ability, as well as with the wis maneuvers of a swordsage, i'm just at a loss as to what my level separation should be.

Also... warblade 1 would only give me +1 to my reflex saves, seeing as how the bonus to your reflex saves from battle (whatever) is capped by your warblade levels.  The 3 iron heart maneuvers are NICE thought.

I'm not going to go the poisoner route, i will let that to the beastmaster, seeing as how he can easily harvest his trained animals for poison.

Decisions decisions....

[anomalousman]

Also... warblade 1 would only give me +1 to my reflex saves, seeing as how the bonus to your reflex saves from battle (whatever) is capped by your warblade levels.  The 3 iron heart maneuvers are NICE thought.

Don't worry, your build will be making all its reflex saves.  If you really want more, just take Action Before Thought, or whatever the Diamond Mind maneuver is that makes it a concentration skill check.

[Alastar]

I meant: not a lot of synergies.

[anomalousman]

I meant: not a lot of synergies.

True, but if you're getting Int synergy with swordsage, then they more than cancel.  The important warblade benefits are BAB, HP, and maneuvers.