Author Topic: Burning What?  (Read 8444 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

flannel

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 128
  • Logician
    • Email
Burning What?
« on: November 26, 2008, 01:03:20 PM »
I just got a copy of "Burning Wheel"--the quickstart stuff, anyway.

Can't say I love it.  So far, and I'm by no means done going through it page-by-page, it feels like being told over and over again how you build a watch when all I'm asking is what time it is.
. . .. ... .....
*wink*

Shaun

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 80
  • I found my pants.
    • This Modern Death
    • Email
Re: Burning What?
« Reply #1 on: November 26, 2008, 02:23:32 PM »
There's a thread for this.
This Modern Death - An RPG Podcast
Raptus Regaliter - My Blog

flannel

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 128
  • Logician
    • Email
Re: Burning What?
« Reply #2 on: November 26, 2008, 02:34:36 PM »
There's a thread for this.
Sort of... that thread appears to be "what is it".  Mine is more of a "don't like it".  *shrug*
. . .. ... .....
*wink*

Shaun

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 80
  • I found my pants.
    • This Modern Death
    • Email
Re: Burning What?
« Reply #3 on: November 26, 2008, 02:44:36 PM »
Ah. Okay. So?
This Modern Death - An RPG Podcast
Raptus Regaliter - My Blog

flannel

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 128
  • Logician
    • Email
Re: Burning What?
« Reply #4 on: November 26, 2008, 02:48:37 PM »
Ah. Okay. So?

Did I miss something glaringly obvious?  I'm surely new here, but I got to this point:

Quote
The Kitchen Sink
The "General Board" for everything game related on these boards. Also, a place to discuss any RPGs other than D&D. If a specific game gets significant attention, we will make a new board for it.

And figured this was just about the right place to discuss the things and/or games we don't like.  Heck, maybe I'm wrong--in which case, delete it.  I wasn't aware I had to have a deeper point than "I'm not getting great vibes from game X".

I'll try and step up my game in the future.  Thanks, hoss.
. . .. ... .....
*wink*

Shaun

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 80
  • I found my pants.
    • This Modern Death
    • Email
Re: Burning What?
« Reply #5 on: November 26, 2008, 02:58:38 PM »
I just meant that you didn't provide anything other than "I don't like it." There's nothing wrong with not liking something, but you didn't really start a conversation about it. Can't really discuss something as non-rational as personal taste, eh? It's like starting a thread that says, "I don't like broccoli." Not much to follow it up.

Now, if you had questions, or arguments against a particular part of the game, there's already a thread for that.
This Modern Death - An RPG Podcast
Raptus Regaliter - My Blog

flannel

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 128
  • Logician
    • Email
Re: Burning What?
« Reply #6 on: November 26, 2008, 03:43:07 PM »
I just meant that you didn't provide anything other than "I don't like it." There's nothing wrong with not liking something, but you didn't really start a conversation about it. Can't really discuss something as non-rational as personal taste, eh? It's like starting a thread that says, "I don't like broccoli." Not much to follow it up.

Now, if you had questions, or arguments against a particular part of the game, there's already a thread for that.

I'll work on that, hoss.
. . .. ... .....
*wink*

Zeke

  • Brilliant Gameologist
  • Bi-Curious George
  • *
  • Posts: 540
    • Email
Re: Burning What?
« Reply #7 on: November 27, 2008, 10:44:02 AM »
part of the problem is that burning wheel is a game about building watches.There aren't as many pre-fab concepts as there are in games like D&D or NWoD.

One of the times we played one of the people we play with had a really hard time with this.She kept trying to find out what the GM knew, when she should have been making it up herself and rolling to make it "real"..

Meg

  • Message Board Extraordinaire
  • Brilliant Gameologist
  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *
  • Posts: 2069
  • Are you rapier than me?
    • Brilliant Gameologists
    • Email
Re: Burning What?
« Reply #8 on: November 29, 2008, 02:07:58 AM »
I actually sort of understand your point and to a certain degree agree with it.

I'm a big picture, narrow in, funnel type learner.  I want to know the objective first and then the content.  Show me the skeleton before you start throwing meat at me.

I actually didn't read the book until hearing about it in the words of people I game with, and that helped.  You almost need the skeleton of it first and then read through it to fill in the content.  And even then- yes, I may get beaten for this but- I don't think it's the best read.  I see it's potential but I'm not completely clear how to get there.

The part of the book that I liked was the lifepath section.  That helped give me some framing for the feel of the whole game.  Don't know if that will help you but it may.

But any other questions/ comments anything about the game you have as you read, post 'em here.  There are quite a few people who may be able to answer.
All of my updates are on twitter! 

This is my angry voice.  Text written in red, by me, is  an official moderator "suggestion"

Want to meet me or the other Gameologists?  Check out where we'll be on the Conventions, Meetups and Events board!

flannel

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 128
  • Logician
    • Email
Re: Burning What?
« Reply #9 on: November 29, 2008, 12:51:44 PM »
I actually sort of understand your point and to a certain degree agree with it.

I'm a big picture, narrow in, funnel type learner.  I want to know the objective first and then the content.  Show me the skeleton before you start throwing meat at me.

I actually didn't read the book until hearing about it in the words of people I game with, and that helped.  You almost need the skeleton of it first and then read through it to fill in the content.  And even then- yes, I may get beaten for this but- I don't think it's the best read.  I see it's potential but I'm not completely clear how to get there.

The part of the book that I liked was the lifepath section.  That helped give me some framing for the feel of the whole game.  Don't know if that will help you but it may.

But any other questions/ comments anything about the game you have as you read, post 'em here.  There are quite a few people who may be able to answer.

I'm just in a big ole intellectual argument with the damn book, is what it comes down to.  I don't necessarily disagree with what its trying to do--and credit me just a bit, I ain't being standoffish to its flavor o' gaming--but its taking its own sweet time doing it.  It seems to be telling me over and over that the point is how we do things, which is kinda like having to sit through an explanation of the rules to CandyLand... informative, and even elegant, but ultimately the furthest thing from what I play CandyLand for.

But I'm wading through it, like to say.  I can acknowledge its intricate nature and its mechanical clarity--but hell, this is some of the most pretentious writing in a book I've had in a while (and, come on, you gotta give me that one... first person explanations in a ruleset REALLY flirt with coming across as pretentious, all by itself).  Too much promotion and concession of a point.  Seems like the guy's even trying to tell me WHY he's got some rulesets when, again, I didn't need the developer justfying his rules.

Anyhow.

Its groovy enough, I dig the flow--but this is likely one of those games (like D&D and Overcall) that you have to watch in action to really "get" if you've never been exposed to it before.  Very visceral, not very imaginative.  That ain't a bad thing, but it does color the way you gotta think about it.
. . .. ... .....
*wink*

Wordman

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 70
    • Asteroid
Re: Burning What?
« Reply #10 on: November 30, 2008, 05:43:26 PM »
« Last Edit: February 27, 2009, 02:54:18 AM by Wordman »
Ctrl ]

flannel

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 128
  • Logician
    • Email
Re: Burning What?
« Reply #11 on: November 30, 2008, 07:12:14 PM »
I'm still wrapping my head around BW, in terms of if I like it or not. The lifepath stuff is an excellent example of this. On the one hand, it's well thought out and seems to work well. On the other hand... well... it reads sort of like Character Building For Dummies. "Gee... figure out events of the characters past and base the skills he has on them? You don't say." I do this anyway, for every game, even when building throwaway D&D characters, and don't particularly need a system to hold my hand through it. The way lifepaths work also essentially forces you to build lifepath lists for any variant game or race you might want to play. (In lesser hands, you can just see the umpty-ump sourcebooks saying "two new lifepaths!" on the back.)

On yet another hand, the Circles trait is awesome in concept, and uses the lifepath stuff so well that it might not be the same without them.

I don't doubt that it is a good game. I'm just not sure it is the game for me. I really need to play it to know for sure, though.
The level by which it breaks down some things don't jive with me.  I get the idea behind "lets get technical here", but I don't think its my kinda gameshow when Bob Barker makes me build a Plinko board before using it.
. . .. ... .....
*wink*

BobismyRhino

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1051
  • *baby Bob kiss* MUAH!
    • Email
Re: Burning What?
« Reply #12 on: November 30, 2008, 07:25:46 PM »
But I'm wading through it, like to say.  I can acknowledge its intricate nature and its mechanical clarity--but hell, this is some of the most pretentious writing in a book I've had in a while (and, come on, you gotta give me that one... first person explanations in a ruleset REALLY flirt with coming across as pretentious, all by itself).  Too much promotion and concession of a point.  Seems like the guy's even trying to tell me WHY he's got some rulesets when, again, I didn't need the developer justfying his rules.

Anyhow.

Its groovy enough, I dig the flow--but this is likely one of those games (like D&D and Overcall) that you have to watch in action to really "get" if you've never been exposed to it before.  Very visceral, not very imaginative.  That ain't a bad thing, but it does color the way you gotta think about it.

I got that vibe from reading it too. AC has it on his toilet (Note to everyone, if you play BW with AC, don't touch his book). But anyway, the writing style is comically snobby, and the writer gives you more information than what is needed. As I'm reading the book I'm asking myself, how the frick do I PLAY the damn game?

I learn from example-I'm very good at mimicking. So I guess that if me and AC ever make our way up to visit Meg and all them, we're going to have to make them play BW so we know how to play it! You can come along too, flannel.
And after we learn how to play it, we can then force MORE people to play it with us! Bwa ha ha!  :evillaugh

People usually think that I've lost my mind. I haven't lost it, I know exactly where it is: the gutter.

My body is a temple. That is why I make chocolate sacrifices in it every day.

Halloween

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 73
    • Last Minute Studio
    • Email
Re: Burning What?
« Reply #13 on: November 30, 2008, 07:54:18 PM »
I haven't read Burning Wheel, mainly because I can't order things online and I've never seen it in a store, but in regards to the "comically snobby" thing I need to say something.

Role-playing games are cursed by having a standard. D&D is, like it or not, the thing that every role-playing game is compared too. Games trying to be different from D&D (as most Indy games are) have to point out how they diverge from that standard.

That level of meta-speak almost always comes off as snarky, pedantic, or comically snobby. Authors have to be incredibly painstaking to avoid having that kind of information come off that way.

Houses of the Blooded, for example, talks at a meta-level about its own rules and decisions behind them, and many people find this snobby... but if you realize what the author is trying to do, you realize that it isn't putting down how other games run, or how other people play them. It's stating, clearly, how it diverges from the standard.

Now I may be wrong about Burning Wheel, Luke Crain really might be a snobby jackass, but I have a feeling that this is what is happening here. By attempting to be clear in how his game is unique, and unlike D&D, he has unfortunately made himself appear to be a pretentious jerk.

flannel

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 128
  • Logician
    • Email
Re: Burning What?
« Reply #14 on: November 30, 2008, 08:06:34 PM »
I haven't read Burning Wheel, mainly because I can't order things online and I've never seen it in a store, but in regards to the "comically snobby" thing I need to say something.

Role-playing games are cursed by having a standard. D&D is, like it or not, the thing that every role-playing game is compared too. Games trying to be different from D&D (as most Indy games are) have to point out how they diverge from that standard.

That level of meta-speak almost always comes off as snarky, pedantic, or comically snobby. Authors have to be incredibly painstaking to avoid having that kind of information come off that way.

Houses of the Blooded, for example, talks at a meta-level about its own rules and decisions behind them, and many people find this snobby... but if you realize what the author is trying to do, you realize that it isn't putting down how other games run, or how other people play them. It's stating, clearly, how it diverges from the standard.

Now I may be wrong about Burning Wheel, Luke Crain really might be a snobby jackass, but I have a feeling that this is what is happening here. By attempting to be clear in how his game is unique, and unlike D&D, he has unfortunately made himself appear to be a pretentious jerk.

I respectfully disagrree, unfortunately with at least part of his.  I don't think the standard is D&D, actually.

I mean, yes, its a strong runner in the pack and for some time has been.  And LOTs of people are exposed to D&D.  I get that.

But, personally, my first exposure to RPGs was Vampire.  I didn't even know anything in particular about what D&D was.  And that's not too uncommon.  I think we might be colored by our first game or first successful game, and mainstream publishers (and many indy ones) get that they don't need to hold your hand from D&D to what they do... look at the intros to any number of RPGs, they define the genre and the game (I'm thinking of old WoD stuff specifically), example the mood or feel--but are pretty silent on WHY certain rules are in favor of just telling you WHAT they are.

I think a stronger sell is to just present, not coax agreement.

. . .. ... .....
*wink*

Halloween

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 73
    • Last Minute Studio
    • Email
Re: Burning What?
« Reply #15 on: November 30, 2008, 11:21:06 PM »
You do make a good point, but I think you're missing mine.

I too started rp'ing with Vampire, and I have never actually played a campaign of D&D that went for more than two sessions... but that doesn't mean it's not the standard.

Houses of the Blooded and Burning Wheel are both games in the historical heroic fantasy genre, the same genre as D&D, unarguably the largest and most successful rpg -in the public mindspace-. Ask someone who is NOT a gamer what an rpg is and, if they're a nerd, they might actually say the words "Dungeons and Dragons" and if they're not a nerd, they'll say something like "Isn't that the thing where a bunch of overweight guys sit in their basements wearing cloaks and trying to talk in old English?"

Burning Wheel will always be compared to D&D because it is the same 'genre' of story (sword and sorcery). It needs to explain why you'd play this game and not D&D. If you were making a dark wannabe goth game about undead monstrosities and their deep deeep poetry, you would have to mention how your game was different from Vampire if you wanted people to play your game over the 'standard'.

BobismyRhino

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1051
  • *baby Bob kiss* MUAH!
    • Email
Re: Burning What?
« Reply #16 on: December 01, 2008, 12:05:56 AM »

It needs to explain why you'd play this game and not D&D.

Clearly, if I'm already reading the book and trying to figure HOW to play the game, I already know that I want to play it.  The reasons why I want to play the game are irrelevant until after I know how the mechanics of the game work.

I just wish they had footnoted that shit or something.

"If you're curious as to why you want to play this game versus DND, flip to page 302"
"If you're curious as to why I'm writing like a pretentious snot, flip to 305"

Would've helped streamline things. And probably would've led to me actually playing the game.  :nonono
 

People usually think that I've lost my mind. I haven't lost it, I know exactly where it is: the gutter.

My body is a temple. That is why I make chocolate sacrifices in it every day.

Halloween

  • Ring-Tailed Lemur
  • **
  • Posts: 73
    • Last Minute Studio
    • Email
Re: Burning What?
« Reply #17 on: December 01, 2008, 12:20:52 AM »
Hmm... I suppose I should separate what I'm saying.

There is explaining why you decided to make certain rules. I like knowing the thought process behind the frequently arcane rules in rpg's. This may make me a minority, but by being brought 'behind the curtain' I can more clearly pick and choose the rules I want to use, and I can more clearly understand if a given system is right for a given group/game.

There is also the 'Why you should play this game' sprinkles, which often come off as pedantic and silly, but I believe are necessary to differentiate a game from more popular games in a similar genre.

Two different things.

Alternatively, I may just have a less sensitive bullshit detector then other people.

BobismyRhino

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1051
  • *baby Bob kiss* MUAH!
    • Email
Re: Burning What?
« Reply #18 on: December 01, 2008, 02:45:26 AM »
I may just have a less sensitive bullshit detector then other people.

I am the reincarnated Dalai Lama.

People usually think that I've lost my mind. I haven't lost it, I know exactly where it is: the gutter.

My body is a temple. That is why I make chocolate sacrifices in it every day.

Josh

  • Brilliant Gameologist
  • Grape ape
  • *
  • Posts: 1835
    • Email
Re: Burning What?
« Reply #19 on: December 01, 2008, 06:28:40 AM »
The number one suggestion I would make for BW is to forget character generation and play the sample adventures. 

Playing "the sword" is an eye-opening experience.  As is "the gift"
Ennies Nominees - Best Podcast 2009