Author Topic: Tips for a party ready to take on the World's Largest Dungeon (No spoilers!)  (Read 10988 times)

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Tshern

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One of the guys I tend to game with apparently got me, himself and two other guys we know to a WLD campaign. The game should start on Thursday and I'd be glad to hear some excellent tips.

I remember there are some sort of summoning and teleportation hamperings. What are they about?

The party ought to be relatively optimized even though the composition is still avowedly undecided. I am probably going Dragonfire Adept, but even that is not sure at all. Anyway, the bottom line is that the party will be able to take on difficult encounters and we'll have all the basics covered somehow.

So, what should I know before entering the dungeon?
« Last Edit: November 23, 2008, 09:21:01 AM by Tshern »

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ninjarabbit

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A warlock or dragonfire adept is a good choice for the WLD since you'll need something with stamina.

A good trapmonkey is a must so a factotum is good idea, I'd recommend any spellcasters to take a reserve feat or two especially the healing touch reserve feat, and a battlefield control fighter thrives in this environment due to the narrow combat space in many areas.

Alastar

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make sure you stockpiled EVERYTHING as your not likely to get out anytime soon, as in, at all!

Don't make a build that is only useful when you have ''that certain item'' you're not going to get it.

Search everything, everywhere, all the time.  Yes, even that.

Make sure you have someone with open locks, search, trapfinding and disable device, and a hefty amount of all of those.

Make sure you can OOC heal.

Not everything is an ennemy, keep that in mind, some npcs are particularly useful (lizardfolk pair in area A were a whole lotta fun, and are still with the players in my game in the next area)

watch out for wrong turns, sometimes, your just cruising down a corridor, being level 2 and killing dire rats, then you open a secret door and your facing a level 7 wererat sorcerer and his imp familiar.

map out the area your going to explore in advance, i don't know how you do it, but do it, it will help you a lot!

Goblins over celestials, you'll know when it comes around.

If i think of something else, I,ll tell you, I,m DMing WLD right now, and it's a load of fun, at least from the DM's point of view. :)

Tshern

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I was figuring Dragonfire Adept would be damn near irreplaceable in this with his Entangling exhalation, because it keeps people from harms way, so everyone can use ranged attacks. Infinite out of combat healing is a bit troublesome at first level though, so I am thinking of getting a Dread Necro to the party, but finding onyx will probably be impossible...

I am sure we will need a trapmonkey, but how much room there is for a general utility caster? Do we need a Swiss army knife Wizard or can we survive if we grab more dedicated arcane casters (namely both Beguiler and Dread Necro, covers trapfinding too)?

Thanks for everything.

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InnaBinder

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DON'T build a Summoner-style Druid or arcanist, the limitations on teleportation and summoning make this a deathwish [spoiler]because the creatures can't return when the spell expires and will probably attack the summoner.[/spoiler] Wizard will have a tough road due to the difficulty in expanding your spellbook in ways that are consistently useful - a Sorcerer actually shines a bit brighter in this environment because of the repeatability of his spells, IME.  I'd go with Beguiler, as Dread Necro will potentially end up with the same issues as the Druid above.
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bayar

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I will try to solo the WLD soon. With only an artificier  :D.

Only that need to make some houserules, like converting gold into raw materials and stuff.

Kaelik

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Beguiler doesn't summon, but if I were going for a 4 person party it would be:

Cleric Archer/Dread Necro/Beguiler/Dragonfire Adept, retrain or die and become a Warlock at level 12.

Everyone takes Tomb Tainted Soul, and the Dragonfire take the one that makes you not sleep. You seriously watch every night without sleep. Combat consists of Battlefield control/shutdown by everyone but the Cleric, then you switch to just doing damage, the Cleric is always shooting, and the Dread Necro starts making skeletons, including Archer ones.

Shadowhunter

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You'll need a healer.
And not just for HP damage, you'll need remove disease, remove curse, break enchantment etc.

Regarding onyxes:
Pale Master.
Sure, it's 1/day. But where's the rush?

+1 on search everything. EVERYTHING.
Some stuff in there are hidden in the weirdest of places.


Wizards, depending on DM, might get hosed.
As the posibilities of scribing new spells into your spellbook will be quite hard.
Though you can solve that by talking with your DM and taking a full spellbook with you, that you'll step by step learn.

No summons. You can't summon within the dungeon.
No Druid. Just don't. Trust me.


I think a Binder would do well in WLD. Sure the "no summon" clause might interfere with your pact making...but honestly, Vestiges aren't bound by normal rules so it really shouldn't be a problem.
[Spoiler]
Quote from: Runestar
the most effective optimization is the one you can actually get away with.  :smirk

Quote from: Vinom
(A group of nerds are called a murder because like crows we are anti-social, like shiny things, and often squack at each other over nothing for hours)

I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/quote]
[/spoiler]

Binder? You're Welcome

Zceryll makes Binders go from tier 3 to tier 2.
Cagemarrow is a Genius

Before giving the advice that build X would be better of with Fist of the Forest, take a long, good look at Primal Living. Twice.

Tshern

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How does the Dread Necro gain access to onyx? That was my main problem. Otherwise, we came up with the same party composition, but we had a Warforged Crusader instead of a Dread Necro. No need to sleep, minor healing and lockdowning while DFA (Dragonborn mongrelfolk for con score of 24 ftw) uses Entangling exhalation while Cleric rains death with the Beguiler.

Clearly we are thinking along the same lines here, but how about the onyx? I don't want it to turn out like a Fighter waking up without his weapon.

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Prime32

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No martial adepts?
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The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Tshern

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So for everyone's information: The current party composition looks as follows, Crusader or a Dread Necro, Cleric, Beguiler and Dragonfire Adept. Comments on Crusader vs Dread Necro are appreciated.

You'll need a healer.
And not just for HP damage, you'll need remove disease, remove curse, break enchantment etc.
Oh yes, figured as much. Nice to know for sure though.

Quote
Regarding onyxes:
Pale Master.
Sure, it's 1/day. But where's the rush?
This is an excellent idea! What level do they get this ability at?

Quote
+1 on search everything. EVERYTHING.
Some stuff in there are hidden in the weirdest of places.
The Beguiler will have his moments too then...

Quote
Wizards, depending on DM, might get hosed.
As the posibilities of scribing new spells into your spellbook will be quite hard.
Though you can solve that by talking with your DM and taking a full spellbook with you, that you'll step by step learn.
We have pretty much abandoned the idea of a Wizard already. Seems like too risky in the dungeon and we want to take no chances like that.

Quote
No summons. You can't summon within the dungeon.
No Druid. Just don't. Trust me.
Even a melee Druid or something without summoning?

Quote
I think a Binder would do well in WLD. Sure the "no summon" clause might interfere with your pact making...but honestly, Vestiges aren't bound by normal rules so it really shouldn't be a problem.
A worthy idea, I'll let my party know.

Prime32: Look at this post.

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PhaedrusXY

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This is an excellent idea! What level do they get this ability at?

Edit: Oops, Shadowhunter is right. It's 2nd. The CL loss is at 1st.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2008, 08:05:29 PM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Shadowhunter

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2nd level, so 10th level at the earliest.
Mind you that they'll get darkvision at 3rd, so overall it's a good choice.

Especially if your DM are following the adventure by the book, since there is a place described as "littered with skeletons" with no information of exactly how many there are.


A Druid will be able to contribute. But summons are out, some signature spells are out, Wildshape'll prove unreliable unless the player and the DM makes sure what animals the druid sofar have encountered. Though perhaps there's some subsititution options in DotU, Dungeonscape or something that'll make it decent.


Dread Necromancer will own the Crusader in the long run. Literally. He will own the dead Crusaders skeleton.
[Spoiler]
Quote from: Runestar
the most effective optimization is the one you can actually get away with.  :smirk

Quote from: Vinom
(A group of nerds are called a murder because like crows we are anti-social, like shiny things, and often squack at each other over nothing for hours)

I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/quote]
[/spoiler]

Binder? You're Welcome

Zceryll makes Binders go from tier 3 to tier 2.
Cagemarrow is a Genius

Before giving the advice that build X would be better of with Fist of the Forest, take a long, good look at Primal Living. Twice.

Tshern

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Dread Necromancer will own the Crusader in the long run. Literally. He will own the dead Crusaders skeleton.
Haha! And Charnel touch will be nice at first levels for both damage and healing. I think I am leaning towards Dread Necro since we don't really need lockdowning in addition to DFA, right?

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Surreal

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For the beguiler... how about a Beguiler/Binder/Anima Mage/Shadowcraft Mage?

Earth Dreamer (Races of Stone) is also potentially very powerful in the WLD.
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Shadowhunter

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For the beguiler... how about a Beguiler 3/Binder 1/Anima Mage 10/Shadowcraft Mage 5/Mindbender 1?

+1

Dread Necro over Crusader, if nothing else a Spectral Hand'ed Shivering Touch will help more against flying things than random dude with a sword out of reach...
[Spoiler]
Quote from: Runestar
the most effective optimization is the one you can actually get away with.  :smirk

Quote from: Vinom
(A group of nerds are called a murder because like crows we are anti-social, like shiny things, and often squack at each other over nothing for hours)

I often have to remind people not to underrate divination.  The ability to effectively metagame without actually metagaming beats the ability to set things on fire more times than not.
[/quote]
[/spoiler]

Binder? You're Welcome

Zceryll makes Binders go from tier 3 to tier 2.
Cagemarrow is a Genius

Before giving the advice that build X would be better of with Fist of the Forest, take a long, good look at Primal Living. Twice.

fliprushman

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I'm surprised no one mentioned a Totemist or Binder.
Blah!

jameswilliamogle

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Binders do great.  Incarnates do great, though they suffer a bit at higher levels.  Both can tank for you, and aren't that equipment dependent.  My ideal WLD group would be:

Binder, Incarnate, Beguiler, Cleric, Dragonfire Adept

At low levels, that gives 1 trapfinder, 3 tanks, 1 battlefield control, 2 faces, 1 healer
At high levels, that gives 1 trapfinder w/ 1 backup, 2 tanks w/ 1 backup, 1 healer w/ 2 backups, 1 battlefield control w/ 2 backups, 2 faces

Adding a Psion would be good, too.  Also, there's this factor: you're in a stone dungeon, and all dwarves get trapfinding for stone-based traps (whether the trap is made of stone or if its set in stone), therefore any dwarf w/ a base-class w/ Search could probably do 90% of the trapfinder's job (mundane free-standing traps, like you'd find in wooden chests, are still an issue).  This includes Wizards, Psychic Warriors, Dragonfire Adept, Bard, and of course the standard ones that have trapfinding already.  I'm sure there's some feats that add it as a class skill, but I've forgotten.

This party only has 1 major equipment sink: the cleric.  The rest don't need equipment to do their basic functions successfully.  I prefer the diversity of the Incarnate to the Totemist, but its a minor point, and they function fairly similarly.

Don't forget that once you get Fabricate, the access issues in the dungeon can go WAY down if you have just a few feats (Psionic Fabricate goes REALLY well w/ a Warlock / Chameleon).

If you can, the Warforged is a great race to play: the immunities, the auto-stable, and the natural attack are all awesome.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2008, 10:13:46 PM by jameswilliamogle »

ChristopherGroves

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Good post.  Wargorged DFAs are one of my favorites.

Also check the interaction of Tomb-Tainted and Warforged.

Heal half from healing
Take full from inflict

Tomb-tainted swaps these ... if your DM interprets this as you still get half from healing but heal full from inflicts, good times.

skydragonknight

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Maybe it's not the best strategy, but a Warlock would do well for a replacement Dread Necro.
The Dead Walk is Onyx-free, but without onyxes they only last 1 min/CL.
Still, take the corpses you want and line them up in a fishing net(or tensar's floating disc if you have one) and drag them around with you. I can't imagine you ever running out of bodies?

Sounds iffy? Keep in mind that's only a single invocation. The Warlock will have more things to do, including infinite eldritch blast and UMDing every single thing you randomly find.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.