Author Topic: Prestige classes for GOD  (Read 14353 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Alastar

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1028
    • Email
Re: Prestige classes for GOD
« Reply #20 on: November 22, 2008, 03:16:33 AM »
But thou shall not lose caster level is a very good mandate, althought that is all very good, i still think one more spell levels is better, especially at lower levels, when those level 3 spells can make all the difference in battle.

Endarire

  • Man in Gorilla Suit
  • *****
  • Posts: 2171
    • Email
Re: Prestige classes for GOD
« Reply #21 on: November 22, 2008, 06:12:26 PM »
If you lose a caster level, consider when you lose it.  A wizard5 has enough spells for 2-4 fights depending how he allocates his resources and assuming he doesn't just shoot his crossbow every turn.

Meanwhile, a wizard7/fatespinner5 may lose a caster level, but he has much greater stamina.  (I don't typically endorse fatespinner5.)

Also, absorbing the loss of BAB is less painful since buffing my STR will typically offset it.  There are fewer ways to boost my caster level and even fewer ways to offset the loss of spell slots and spells known.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2008, 06:26:10 PM by Endarire »
Hood - My first answer to all your build questions; past, present, and future.

Speaking of which:
Don't even need TO for this.  Any decent Hood build, especially one with Celerity, one-rounds [Azathoth, the most powerful greater deity from d20 Cthulu].
Does it bug anyone else that we've reached the point where characters who can obliterate a greater deity in one round are considered "decent?"

X-Codes

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3941
Re: Prestige classes for GOD
« Reply #22 on: November 22, 2008, 09:28:35 PM »
But thou shall not lose caster level is a very good mandate, althought that is all very good, i still think one more spell levels is better, especially at lower levels, when those level 3 spells can make all the difference in battle.
Indeed, while losing only one or two caster levels can still result in a good character, you must lose none at all in order to be GOD (one exception is maybe Ultimate Magus, depending on how you build it, and the other is War Weaver).  GOD does not encompass all effective spellcasters using the Wizard spell list, it encompasses a very specific subset of Wizards that are the best of the best at controlling the game.

For example, these are not GOD PrC's.

IotSV: It requires two crap feats to enter and simply doesn't pay off in the end.  Half the veils are crap and all of them allow saving throws.  The one truly abusable class feature is Kaleidoscopic Doom which is only really good if the target as at least 5 spell effects on it and then you must dispel them all, at which point the creature takes 140 points of various energy damages and must make two fortitude saves or be killed/petrified, but it's still a targeted effect that only works once per day.  Compared to the other stuff you can do with your levels, this is crap.

Malconvoker: It loses a CL and goes against the principles of GOD: you're taking a direct involvement in combat as opposed to supporting allies and crippling enemies.  GOD typically has better things to do than to clutter up the battlefield with a bunch of fiendish animals, and even if he doesn't he doesn't need Malconvoker levels to do it.

Wild Mage: Stop pushing Practiced Spellcaster/Wild Mage already.  You net an average of 1 CL when you do that.  ONE, not 1d6!  Furthermore, Wild Mage requires the craptacular Magical Aptitude and does not compensate for it's loss.  In other words, Wild Mage is absolutely NOT GOD.

Also, some good stuff...

Archmage: Costs 3 crappy feats, you say?  Alright, then, lets see how it compensates:

Arcane Reach: Reach Spell without the adjustment.
Mastery of Elements: Energy Substitution x5 that you can apply on-the-fly.
Mastery of Shaping: Extraordinary Spell Aim without the skill check.

Reach Spell is one of those things that you either never use or always use.  With Archmage you can use it some of the time and be really helped out by it.  Energy Substitution sucks because it's 1 energy type and you still have to prepare it beforehand, the Archmage ability faces no such restrictions.  Extraordinary Spell Aim is a staple for damn near every wizard build, but Archmages get a better version for free.  Beyond that, you get two Archmage abilities for free.  I know most people don't like Arcane Fire, but for FS Diviners (useful because you only lose 2 schools for all those spell slots), you can nab it and have some offensive punch.  If you're not a FS Diviner, there's still Spell-Like Ability (Spell Power is crap IMO, 1CL isn't worth a 5th-level slot).

Mage of the Arcane Order: Spellpool is awesome, and while it requires a crappy feat to enter you're compensated at 2nd level.

Spellguard of Silverymoon:  The only thing holding this PrC back is the Obligation.  If you're in a campaign that takes place in the Silver Marches then you can almost certainly work with your GM to get the Obligation circumvented.  If you're not playing in FR then you can still likely get the Obligation circumvented since you're also not going to benefit from any of the other first-level stuff.  It requires Combat Casting, which sucks, but you're compensated at 2nd and get a free feat at 4th.  Further, the requirement is shared with Abjurant Champion which can significantly bolster your AC and give you alternative spell uses if you care about such things.  The big draw here is Selective Spell which is about on-par in terms of effectiveness with Extraordinary Spell Aim.
« Last Edit: November 22, 2008, 09:32:09 PM by X-Codes »

The_Mad_Linguist

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8780
  • Simulated Thing
Re: Prestige classes for GOD
« Reply #23 on: November 22, 2008, 10:00:27 PM »
But thou shall not lose caster level is a very good mandate, althought that is all very good, i still think one more spell levels is better, especially at lower levels, when those level 3 spells can make all the difference in battle.
Indeed, while losing only one or two caster levels can still result in a good character, you must lose none at all in order to be GOD (one exception is maybe Ultimate Magus, depending on how you build it, and the other is War Weaver).  GOD does not encompass all effective spellcasters using the Wizard spell list, it encompasses a very specific subset of Wizards that are the best of the best at controlling the game.

For example, these are not GOD PrC's.

IotSV: It requires two crap feats to enter and simply doesn't pay off in the end.  Half the veils are crap and all of them allow saving throws.  The one truly abusable class feature is Kaleidoscopic Doom which is only really good if the target as at least 5 spell effects on it and then you must dispel them all, at which point the creature takes 140 points of various energy damages and must make two fortitude saves or be killed/petrified, but it's still a targeted effect that only works once per day.  Compared to the other stuff you can do with your levels, this is crap.
You're immune to antimagic fields.  And if your opponents don't have daylight, you're completely impossible to hit with spells.  It makes it less necessary to spend spells and equipment slots defending yourself.

  Just like Treantmonk said, it's a decent PrC.
Linguist, Mad, Unique, none of these things am I
My custom class: The Priest of the Unseen Host
Planetouched Handbook
Want to improve your character?  Then die.

Omen of Peace

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1053
  • Wise Madman
Re: Prestige classes for GOD
« Reply #24 on: November 22, 2008, 10:36:59 PM »
How is Mastery of Elements useful to a "God" wizard ? Energy damage is just wrong at level 13+ except for a highly specialized caster (i.e. a blaster).

And indeed Io7V is pretty good - it provides some of the best defensive abilities of the game. The first levels are a bit meh, that's true.
The Malazan Book of the Fallen, Steven Erikson

X-Codes

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3941
Re: Prestige classes for GOD
« Reply #25 on: November 22, 2008, 10:54:30 PM »
How is Mastery of Elements useful to a "God" wizard ? Energy damage is just wrong at level 13+ except for a highly specialized caster (i.e. a blaster).
Nevermind all the multi-threat damage/BC or damage/debuff spells in the game.  Acid Fog and Freezing Fog, for example, deal lots of damage because enemies have a hard time getting out of them unless they have 5-10 points of resistance.  If you have Mastery of Elements you negate that resistance, deal your damage, and make the monsters that much weaker once they finally manage to get out of the radius.

Omen of Peace

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1053
  • Wise Madman
Re: Prestige classes for GOD
« Reply #26 on: November 22, 2008, 11:11:11 PM »
Spend a level and an 8th level spell slot to deal 1d6 or 2d6 damage per round ? I'm not convinced.
The Malazan Book of the Fallen, Steven Erikson

Treantmonklvl20

  • Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 310
    • Email
Re: Prestige classes for GOD
« Reply #27 on: November 23, 2008, 01:19:13 AM »
There are broad guidelines that must first be given.

1) GOD does not lose caster levels.  If the class lacks full spellcasting, then it's not GOD (there are RARE exceptions to this rule, but chances are you're not going to make use of any of them).
2) If the class requires crappy feats to enter, the return should be good class abilities or free metamagic feats in at least a 1:1 ratio.

Beyond that, it matters a lot on what your particular GOD does.

Recaster and Malconvoker come to mind.

My rule has always been - if you are going to give up caster levels - whatever you get in return needs to be Huge.

(Yes I've changed my mind on Malconvokers as being God.  I've since found Summoning to be a very excellent form of BC.  My current god wizard is a Malconvoker, and I'm quite enjoying summoning twin Feindish Huge Crocs for grapple rather than Evards)
« Last Edit: November 23, 2008, 01:21:41 AM by Treantmonklvl20 »
If at first you don't succeed - maybe failure is your style.

PhoenixInferno

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1360
Re: Prestige classes for GOD
« Reply #28 on: November 23, 2008, 01:41:09 AM »
Spend a level and an 8th level spell slot to deal 1d6 or 2d6 damage per round ? I'm not convinced.
Well, Freezing Fog is like Grease + Solid Fog together, and does a small amount of damage.  You do it for Grease + Solid Fog, not for the damage.

X-Codes

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3941
Re: Prestige classes for GOD
« Reply #29 on: November 23, 2008, 02:48:17 AM »
Spend a level and an 8th level spell slot to deal 1d6 or 2d6 damage per round ? I'm not convinced.
Well, Freezing Fog is like Grease + Solid Fog together, and does a small amount of damage.  You do it for Grease + Solid Fog, not for the damage.
It seems wasteful to just ignore/forget about the damage, though.  Furthermore, a monster with 1 HP does just as much damage as one with 200 HP, so the argument that "oh, that just does a little damage" doesn't really seem reasonable to me.

If you still don't care then just take more SLAs.  SLAs are awesome.

Omen of Peace

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1053
  • Wise Madman
Re: Prestige classes for GOD
« Reply #30 on: November 23, 2008, 12:20:25 PM »
Well, Freezing Fog is like Grease + Solid Fog together, and does a small amount of damage.  You do it for Grease + Solid Fog, not for the damage.
I wasn't questioning the greatness of this spell, only asserting that the piddly damage is very much an afterthought (and so not worth spending so many resources on). So we're agreed. :)

@X-Codes: agreed, SLAs are good.
As for damage, your party members will generally be much better at it IMO.
The Malazan Book of the Fallen, Steven Erikson

PhaedrusXY

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8022
  • Advanced Spambot
Re: Prestige classes for GOD
« Reply #31 on: November 23, 2008, 03:46:30 PM »
Spend a level and an 8th level spell slot to deal 1d6 or 2d6 damage per round ? I'm not convinced.
Well, Freezing Fog is like Grease + Solid Fog together, and does a small amount of damage.  You do it for Grease + Solid Fog, not for the damage.
It seems wasteful to just ignore/forget about the damage, though.
Less wasteful than taking 3 useless feats and an 8th level spellslot to not forget about it. Archmage is 2-3 levels long and if you're GOD none of them involve taking Mastery of Elements.

And has been pointed out, Iot7V is so freakin' poweful defensively, that what it really does is make sure you're still going so you can be GOD. If GOD is incapacitated or dead, he can't do his job. This prevents that without using a bunch of your spellslots for buffing yourself.
« Last Edit: November 23, 2008, 03:48:40 PM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

ChristopherGroves

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 218
Re: Prestige classes for GOD
« Reply #32 on: November 23, 2008, 04:02:39 PM »
God has better things to worry about ... raise shields.

Heliomance

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 159
    • Email
Re: Prestige classes for GOD
« Reply #33 on: November 23, 2008, 09:05:55 PM »
So as a bare-bones build, how does Transmuter 5/War Weaver 5/Incantatrix 10 look?

ChristopherGroves

  • Barbary Macaque at the Rock of Gibraltar
  • ***
  • Posts: 218
Re: Prestige classes for GOD
« Reply #34 on: November 23, 2008, 09:09:54 PM »
Like the leader of a party of War Trolls?



Sorry, Enlarged, Flying, Hasted, Protected-from-Fire & Protected-from-Acid War Trolls.

X-Codes

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3941
Re: Prestige classes for GOD
« Reply #35 on: November 23, 2008, 11:06:38 PM »
Less wasteful than taking 3 useless feats and an 8th level spellslot to not forget about it. Archmage is 2-3 levels long and if you're GOD none of them involve taking Mastery of Elements.

And has been pointed out, Iot7V is so freakin' poweful defensively, that what it really does is make sure you're still going so you can be GOD. If GOD is incapacitated or dead, he can't do his job. This prevents that without using a bunch of your spellslots for buffing yourself.
Archmage is good for all 5.  Removing components on escape spells (hell, removing all the limitations of SPELLS on escape spells) can go just as far in terms of survivability as an IotSV.  What's more, IotSV only gets really good defenses once the Indigo and Violet veils come into play and neither of them really protects against big, stupid monsters with natural attacks if they can make the middling save DCs.

@X-Codes: agreed, SLAs are good.
As for damage, your party members will generally be much better at it IMO.
Not being the best at something doesn't mean you shouldn't do it given the opportunity.

skydragonknight

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 3297
Re: Prestige classes for GOD
« Reply #36 on: November 23, 2008, 11:25:01 PM »
Malconvokers(and summoners in general) are awesome synergy with a party that has one or more Rogues.

The Celestial Monkey of flanking aid-another just gave the Rogue Sneak Attack and +4 to hit! And it forced the monster to waste one of it's attacks killing the monkey, effectively lowering the damage dealt to the Rogue!
One of the top ten uses of a 1st level spell slot, IMHO.
It always seems like the barrels around here have something in them.

Callix

  • Donkey Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 622
  • Not cool enough for a custom title.
Re: Prestige classes for GOD
« Reply #37 on: November 24, 2008, 01:38:42 AM »
@X-Codes: agreed, SLAs are good.
As for damage, your party members will generally be much better at it IMO.
Not being the best at something doesn't mean you shouldn't do it given the opportunity.
No, but it does mean you shouldn't spend resources on it when you'll be mediocre at best and can get by without. Whether or not you take Archmage 5, Mastery of Elements isn't a GOD ability, it's a blaster ability.
I know gameology-fu.

PhaedrusXY

  • Organ Grinder
  • *****
  • Posts: 8022
  • Advanced Spambot
Re: Prestige classes for GOD
« Reply #38 on: November 24, 2008, 02:50:37 AM »
Archmage is good for all 5.  Removing components on escape spells (hell, removing all the limitations of SPELLS on escape spells) can go just as far in terms of survivability as an IotSV.  What's more, IotSV only gets really good defenses once the Indigo and Violet veils come into play and neither of them really protects against big, stupid monsters with natural attacks if they can make the middling save DCs.
Most of the escape spells only have verbal components, anyway. So Silent Spell, or an item that grants it a few times per day, takes care of that. Or one of those cheap magic items in the MiC, or the Abrupt Jaunt class feature, etc.

And big, stupid monsters with natural attacks aren't typically the biggest threats to high level wizards. Other spellcasters are, and the veils are quite a good defense against them.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

CantripN

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1199
  • Constantly talking isn't necessarily communicating
    • Cantrip, Gestalt Gish
Re: Prestige classes for GOD
« Reply #39 on: November 25, 2008, 03:44:57 PM »
I'm rather fond of Silver Pyromancer, Anima Mage and Soulcaster, lately. Sure, they all lose a CL, but the first lets you cast Paladin spells, ignore Fire Resistance/Immunity and Empower Fire spells for free, while the others get Soulbinding / Meldshaping (which offer useful abilities) and Free Metamagic in the case of the Anima Mage (making it the better one, usually).

Oh, and there's the Urban Savant in Cityscape, which is one of the most powerful GOD PrCs, with full casting.
Read, every day, something no one else is reading. Think, every day, something no one else is thinking. Do, every day, something no one else would be silly enough to do. It is bad for the mind to be always part of unanimity.