Non-ToB Samurai build

[Cyrocloud]

The op specifically stated that he wanted a two handed weapon fighter to take advantage of uncanny blow.

[RobbyPants]

I've been busy for a couple of days and just checked in...

I'm not so sure how strict your dm is on what you have to be to be called a samurai, but this build may due.

Barbarian 2/Fighter 4/Frenzied beserker 4/ EWP 2/FB+6/Ronin 2

I think it could make for a real interesting character, but it's not quite the concept I wanted.  I'm curious: what two tricks would you take with Exotic Weapon Master in that build?

the samurai in CW does disgrase to Musashi Miyamoto.

Yeah, the only two reasons I took it in my original build were to get EWP(Bastard Sword) (for entry into Exotic Weapon Master), and because Diplomacy and Concentration are class skills (for entry into Kensai).  I saw no reason to take any more than that.  TWF didn't fit the build.

If you are going to 2WF with both katana and wakizashi, and you have to take Weapon specialization, get Tempest (Complete Adventurer) in that progression. If you use Headless Charge a lot, AC won't be a thing you'll be caring about.

I'd rather use the katana two-handed and Power Attack the hell out of it.

Power Attack and Leap attack are mandatory. After that, Shock Trooper (CW) is a winner. Combat Brute is a nice addition.

So you'd suggest Shock Trooper ahead of Combat Brute?  That was my general impression, as it seems like I'd get more use out of it.

Maybe Champion of corellon? Anyway, i don't think heavy armour is a req to be a Samurai. My mind at least envision a kimono-guy

What book is that in?  My current build has heavy armor proficiency, although I'd probably shoot for mithril fullplate at the earliest possible convinence.  One cool think about the Kensai is that their bond with their weapon saves you a ton of money, allowing me to get better armor ealier.  I looked at the XP cost to upgrade the weapon and it's really not that bad.

The op specifically stated that he wanted a two handed weapon fighter to take advantage of uncanny blow.

Yeah, after I thought up the Kensai part of it, I rememberd uncanny blow, and decided a bastard sword two-handed was a better way to go than a greatsword.  Once you get a Str of 16+, you come out ahead on average damage (5.5 + 6 as opposed to 7 + 4).

Thanks for the replies.  When I get a chance, I'll see if I can flesh the feats out a bit more in the OP.

[unundindur]

I meant the Samurai from Oriental Adventures, and Champion of Corellon is in Races of the wild. The latter requires you to be an elf though, but is otherwise a great choice for any heavy-armor-high dex build (twf or not, good anyway).

[ErhnamDJ]

  I see what you're trying to do with the Kensai, but I really just don't like that class. I hate that you have to be lawful to take it. I absolutely hate it. One level of whirling-frenzy barbarian would be worth more than everything you get from Kensai, but you can't have both. Either way, Kensai or barbarian, go with power attack and shock trooper. Chop stuff in half. I don't see much else you can do with your listed books.

[RobbyPants]

  I see what you're trying to do with the Kensai, but I really just don't like that class. I hate that you have to be lawful to take it. I absolutely hate it. One level of whirling-frenzy barbarian would be worth more than everything you get from Kensai, but you can't have both. Either way, Kensai or barbarian, go with power attack and shock trooper. Chop stuff in half. I don't see much else you can do with your listed books.

Well, I suppose I could always take barbarian, then switch alignments later.  Although it looks like whirling frenzy counts as rage in terms of alignment.  I know barbarians keep most of their class features if they become lawful, but sadly they lose rage.

I might be able to comrimise and take a level of the lion totem if I got ahold of Complete Champion for pounce.  Still, I'd have to re-order my class levels to take advantage of that.  The first five levels would probably be something like Barbarian 2/Samurai 1/Fighter 2.  All I'd really lose from the orgininal build would be a single feat.  Still, it seems kinda crappy taking one or two levels of barbarian and then losing the ability to rage when I multiclass out and change alignment...

[dark_samuari]

  I see what you're trying to do with the Kensai, but I really just don't like that class. I hate that you have to be lawful to take it. I absolutely hate it. One level of whirling-frenzy barbarian would be worth more than everything you get from Kensai, but you can't have both. Either way, Kensai or barbarian, go with power attack and shock trooper. Chop stuff in half. I don't see much else you can do with your listed books.

Well, I suppose I could always take barbarian, then switch alignments later.  Although it looks like whirling frenzy counts as rage in terms of alignment.  I know barbarians keep most of their class features if they become lawful, but sadly they lose rage.

I might be able to comrimise and take a level of the lion totem if I got ahold of Complete Champion for pounce.  Still, I'd have to re-order my class levels to take advantage of that.  The first five levels would probably be something like Barbarian 2/Samurai 1/Fighter 2.  All I'd really lose from the orgininal build would be a single feat.  Still, it seems kinda crappy taking one or two levels of barbarian and then losing the ability to rage when I multiclass out and change alignment...

Why not pick the alternate class variant from Unearthed Arcana that replaces rage with favored enemy and combat style feats?

[Optimator]

Maybe Champion of corellon? Anyway, i don't think heavy armour is a req to be a Samurai. My mind at least envision a kimono-guy

I always pictured, in my mind, Samurai as wearing heavy armour.  FWIW.

[Flay Crimsonwind]

What's the OP's image of a samurai, first thing that always needs to be communicated? Samurai in battle wore armor, yes, not always heavy as fullplate though (medium armor would do, most likely). They also mainly used bows, happening to ALSO be proficient in the sword. Later samurai, in kimonos, fought with a different type of sword, lighter and just as sharp, but less durable, and were there mainly for dueling and court-life. Really, what is it you want your samurai to look like, since historically they're heavily varied, and once fantasy's included, forget it.

[Kuroimaken]

I think Flay touched on a very important point, but I don't necessarily agree that samurai vary too much depending on the historical period. For the record, in the period of Sengoku Jidai alone, over 500 different styles of kenjutsu were said to exist. Samurai hardly all fought alike. Also, the longbow (daikyu) was not necessarily their main weapon: while the Japanese in general made little to no use of shields, daikyu were more difficult to train with, and therefore specialized troops were the norm, rather than it being a mainstay.

History aside, though. Samurai are most definitely NOT Barbarians. Samurai fight with focus and spirit (which arguably Barbarians have less of the former and more of the latter). Strange though this may sound, I'd think a level of Monk could do wonders for improving your AC if you go unarmored. Medium armor sucks anyway -- the best armors are either light for mobility or Fullplate for diminished dex types. Kensai is definitely heading in the right direction, too.

You should consider though, that many famous samurai were spearsmen (like Sanada Yukimura, for instance). Think about it.

[Flay Crimsonwind]

Ah, no no no, when I said historically, I meant that once viewing their history they were varied, not that per period they differed. I gotta learn to word things better, lol.

In any case, the ranger actually works wonders as a samurai class. Monk would definitely work well, especially if you were talking the more courtly samurai, wherein swashbuckler would also probably serve you well. No iaijutsu master cuts, but then again, all anime samurai could be insta-crafted from ToB, so we'll get creative. Fighter really does the job if you think about it, representing specialized training and more war-like skills. Slap Able learner on a human samurai, which is fine to use since fighters have damned enough feats as is, and they can net some social skills with their extra human skill points and such. Iono about spear/polearm related feats, but I'd assume you could easy-craft a warrior with them. Uber-katana skillz could just be Weapon Mastery, as friggin obnoxious long a list of reqs as it has.

Damnit, now I wanna make a samurai again, heh. In ways, barbarian could work, but not as a staple; some were very emotionally driven, and relied on heavier offensive tactics to constantly threaten an opponent, thus keeping said foe on the defensive until (the law of probability kicks in, heh) eventually their opponent, unable to attack back, was slain. But you'd still need some sort of class to show specialized training with the weapon, which Kensai does in a way. Does the samurai have allegiance to a family, individual, political group, military organization, they get a little complicated, but all can be pretty easily created. Basically, get mucho detail on their role aspect, then we'll work on crafting the numbers (odd as it is to say that onn the CO boards....)

[RobbyPants]

Well, the "Samurai" part is really for flavor more than anything else.  As I mentioned earlier, I was really looking for a THW figher, most likely a charger.  I liked the look of the Kensai and had heard good things about it.  Plus, one nice aspcet about the PrC is the role playing hook of serving a lord.  This is the kind of thing my DM loves (makes planning adventures easier).  That being said, I guess I didn't have anything really historically specific planned for the character.  He'd wield a katana both for flavor, and because it works with uncanny blow from Exotic Weapon Master.

I don't know that I'd need monk, in that it adds yet another ability I'd need to keep high, and I can wear mithril fullplate if I'm looking for medium armor with a good AC.  I'm still tossing around the suggestion of Knight from earlier for the last four levels of the build.  At 4th level, I'd get medium armor mastery (or whatever that class ability is called ).

I'm going to edit the OP to add in a few more feats I've decided on.

[Kuroimaken]

Alright, so you want a charging guy. This may seem a little idiotic, but since you're not going the TWF route, you might as well supersize your sword. Grab yourself a nodachi (which in game terms is essentially a Large katana) for starters -- it doesn't wreck your build because it's still an exotic weapon. I find the Bastard Sword an odd choice for qualifying for EWM though -- it only requires exotic proficiency if you want to wield it in one hand, otherwise it's a martial weapon, but you'll be wielding it in both hands... so it's a martial weapon (weird, huh?).

Are there any sources of Smite besides Paladin and Destruction Cleric levels? I think Smite would work nicely with your build. Personally, I hate Knights -- their abilities are weak and, for Samurai "flavor", I don't think they fit. Heck, even Marshal works better (samurai are more than just BSFs -- they're big fighters with above average or high mental scores. One of them might as well be Charisma).

[RobbyPants]

Alright, so you want a charging guy. This may seem a little idiotic, but since you're not going the TWF route, you might as well supersize your sword. Grab yourself a nodachi (which in game terms is essentially a Large katana) for starters -- it doesn't wreck your build because it's still an exotic weapon. I find the Bastard Sword an odd choice for qualifying for EWM though -- it only requires exotic proficiency if you want to wield it in one hand, otherwise it's a martial weapon, but you'll be wielding it in both hands... so it's a martial weapon (weird, huh?).

What actual weapon stats are you talking about?  A large-sized katana?  Whatever it is, it would have to be one-handed in order for me to use uncanny blow from EWM.  Using that, my Str score doesn't have to get that high to have the average damage more than make up for a larger two-handed weapon.

[unundindur]

The last point is true, but I would add that a noteworthy change would be to go for a great schimitar from the Sandstorm book. It is essentially the same as a Bastard sword, but 1d8 damage, and 18-20/*2 on a critical. At least it deserves mention.

Btw, have you descided what stats you want to focus on?

[RobbyPants]

The last point is true, but I would add that a noteworthy change would be to go for a great schimitar from the Sandstorm book. It is essentially the same as a Bastard sword, but 1d8 damage, and 18-20/*2 on a critical. At least it deserves mention.

That could be nice, as I'm only dropping one damage on average.  The only thing holding me back is my current build has a level of CW Samurai in it (to get Diplomacy and Concentration as class skills) and that gives me EWP(Bastard Sword).  I could always ask the DM for a house-rule on the great scimitar.  Seems reasonable enough to me (i.e., I'd allow it in my games).

Btw, have you descided what stats you want to focus on?

By stats do you mean ability scores?

If so, I figure Str would be by far the most important with Con as a solid second.  Dex wouldn't be quite so important, but I'd like it to be decent.  I don't know that I have to worry about any of the three mental stats.  IIRC, Kensai is based mostly off of Concentration, which is a Con-based skill.

If I had a 32 point buy, I'd think of doing something along the lines of:
Str: 16
Dex: 14
Con: 16
Int: 10
Wis: 10
Cha: 10

I could also drop the Cha to 8 and boost Int to 12 for the extra skill point.

[Kuroimaken]

I could also drop the Cha to 8 and boost Int to 12 for the extra skill point.

Might as well do it to Wisdom. Sure, you're hurting a save and perception rolls -- but I figure you're not going to have to worry about either of those anyway.

What actual weapon stats are you talking about?  A large-sized katana?  Whatever it is, it would have to be one-handed in order for me to use uncanny blow from EWM.  Using that, my Str score doesn't have to get that high to have the average damage more than make up for a larger two-handed weapon.

Monkey Grip? Sure, you're sacking two points to hit for the uncanny blow damage, but I suppose you've got it figured out already (if you want to go the PA route, I mean).

And yes, I did mean a large-sized katana.

That could be nice, as I'm only dropping one damage on average.  The only thing holding me back is my current build has a level of CW Samurai in it (to get Diplomacy and Concentration as class skills) and that gives me EWP(Bastard Sword).  I could always ask the DM for a house-rule on the great scimitar.  Seems reasonable enough to me (i.e., I'd allow it in my games).

Dude, how many feats do you have figured? You seem awfully fixated on keeping that Samurai level.

[RobbyPants]

Dude, how many feats do you have figured? You seem awfully fixated on keeping that Samurai level.

Well, unless I take a level of Paladin, I'm having a hard time finding a class that gives me +1 BAB as well as Diplomacy and Concentration as class skills.  The skills are actually the reason I looked at CW Samurai.  The EXP feat was more of a bonus.

That being said, I could always just not use it, and take EWP(Great Scimitar) as well.  It's a bit of a pain to waste a feat though...

[Kuroimaken]

Feats are like money. They're only as good as what they can get you, no more, no less. If you are going for a very feat-heavy build it might be okay, but otherwise, you should get some splurging going.

[GawainBS]

If you would insist on Swashbuckler, there's the Sunblade from the DMG that can be treated as both a shortsword and a bastardsword.
Apart from the Alignment restriction, wouldn't a Paladin make a good Samurai?

[RobbyPants]

If you would insist on Swashbuckler, there's the Sunblade from the DMG that can be treated as both a shortsword and a bastardsword.

I'd rather avoid swashbuckler, as it's yet another ability to focus on.

Apart from the Alignment restriction, wouldn't a Paladin make a good Samurai?

Well, it's more of an RP thing than an alignment thing.  I'd plan on being lawful anyway (both because he's a samurai, and also for entry into Kensai), and there's a good chance he'd be lawful good. 

Still, I agree that paladin could do a good job.  A single level of paladin would get rid of the need to take a level of CW samurai.  If I had a decent Cha score, it would be well worth my while to take the 2nd level.  There's no reason to take a 3rd fighter level, so I'd probably end up looking at Paladin 3/Fighter 2 as entry into Kensai.  I'd still take Exotic Weapon Master at 6th level, and then the remaining nine levels of Kensai thereafter. 

Does that seem like a decent idea?  Flavor-wise it's good (if I don't mine being a holy samurai), and from my original build, all I lose is EWP(Bastard Sword) and a fighter bonus feat.  In it's place I gain Cha to saves and immunity to fear and disease.  Sadly, without Fighter 4, I wouldn't qualify for Weapon Specialization, and thus not Melee Weapon Mastery either.  Although, I'm not sure how big of a deal that is.  They aren't that great of feats...