Author Topic: Help Min/Maxing  (Read 3977 times)

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emissary666

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Help Min/Maxing
« on: November 16, 2008, 11:05:30 PM »
I am completely useless at min/maxing and I need help. I need to make a tank, but I have no clue how to make it. I have every non setting specific books except for complete champion and ToB
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Callix

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Re: Help Min/Maxing
« Reply #1 on: November 16, 2008, 11:19:03 PM »
What sort of tank do you want? Who are you tanking for? Does it need to be a melee tank? What level start and expected finish?

Have you read the min/max posting guidelines?
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emissary666

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Re: Help Min/Maxing
« Reply #2 on: November 16, 2008, 11:33:01 PM »
my dm is not the best when it comes to character creation. If it is legal, we can build it. All I know is that I need to make a melee character, preferably a tank. We have a blaster wizard, a ranged attack rogue, and a buffing cleric. That was all I was given. I did not notice the posting guidelines when i posted this. I really need help. I don't even know where to start. The level start is 3 and finish is currently unknown, but my dm's campaigns rarely go past 8. If I could give more details I would.

EDIT: And no one needs to tell me my DM sucks. I'm the only person in his group besides him who knows how to play, so I stay with him out of pity.
« Last Edit: November 16, 2008, 11:37:50 PM by emissary666 »
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woodenbandman

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Re: Help Min/Maxing
« Reply #3 on: November 16, 2008, 11:36:46 PM »
If you don't want to know the best tank class don't read the spoiler.

[spoiler]Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid Druid[/spoiler]

At level 3 you've got an animal companion, probably a wolf, to tank for you while you cast buffs. At level 5, you're an animal. Level 8 is, fortunately for you, the sweet spot, where you get dire lion and bear forms and just fucking own everyfuckingthing. You can boost your AC to 36 or higher with a spell and a few items.

Callix

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Re: Help Min/Maxing
« Reply #4 on: November 16, 2008, 11:39:30 PM »
We're glad to help, but you need to make a couple of decisions...

Wait. Did you say a blaster wizard? You guys are in dire need of some battlefield control here. How about a chain tripper? There are a bunch of ways to do them, and they give some decent BC and stop enemies getting to the squishies.

Personally, I like the Psychic Warrior tripper, but we can base this on almost any melee class. Do you have a preference as to flavour?

FAKE EDIT: I agree with woodenbandman to an extent: if the cleric knows what the hell he's doing, you're going to be hard-pressed to be tankier than him. Still, you can do something useful with a non-caster or half-caster if you really want to.
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emissary666

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Re: Help Min/Maxing
« Reply #5 on: November 16, 2008, 11:47:09 PM »
As I said in my edit, it's only me and the DM who know how to play. I had to explain to the cleric how turning worked. I'm hoping on using the bone template from BoVD in my character.
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Callix

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Re: Help Min/Maxing
« Reply #6 on: November 17, 2008, 01:47:41 AM »
As I said in my edit, it's only me and the DM who know how to play. I had to explain to the cleric how turning worked. I'm hoping on using the bone template from BoVD in my character.
Really, no-one's going to say your DM sucks with all except ToB and Comp. Champ. allowed. CC is either mediocre or ridiculous, and ToB can be scary to someone without a lot of experience.

Bone Creature is cool, but not really the best tanking template. It gives +2 Natural, +4 Dex, claws and the Undead type. The one upside is you get to dump Con. How are the stats determined? Also, have you talked to your DM about an LA for the template? There isn't one printed, and taking LA on low-level frontliners is usually a bad idea.

If you want an undead character, I'd strongly recommend Necropolitan (Libris Mortis). It's LA +0, but requires a deal of XP; if you were to take it at 3rd level and pay the XP, you would drop to the start of 2nd level, but you would get bonus XP for being behind the party.
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CannibalSmith

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Re: Help Min/Maxing
« Reply #7 on: November 17, 2008, 03:40:52 AM »
One more vote for Druid. Your companion tanks while you buff it and do battlefield control.

Akalsaris

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Re: Help Min/Maxing
« Reply #8 on: November 17, 2008, 04:14:09 AM »
Druids are a solid tanking class as long as you don't get too cocky, since a lot of your power comes from preparing good buffs.  Third level isn't really their best moment though.  If you're tanking as a druid, I like using Companion Spellbound from the PHBII - it lets you share spells with your animal companion and heal it from a greater distance,  letting you stay out of the way while it takes the hits.  Good choice for a 1st or 3rd level feat for a druid.

Knights from the PHBII are a class designed to tank, and they are good at it starting at 3rd level.  With a d12 HP, heavy armor and shields, a taunt, and various movement-impairing effects, a knight makes a solid tank, albeit not a very versatile class. 

For general tanking feats, Goad from Comp. Adv. is good to get attention, while Combat Expertise and Improved Trip both aid your AC and keep foes from moving around much.  Standstill (Psionics) also helps prevent opponents from escaping.

JaronK

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Re: Help Min/Maxing
« Reply #9 on: November 17, 2008, 04:27:20 AM »
If you want to try something different, I made a pair of shield based builds a while ago, in a thread called "Optimized Shield Use" IIRC.  One of them had no Tome of Battle in it... I believe the build was Feat Rogue 2/Wolf Totem Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 2/Dungeoncrasher Fighter 6/War Hulk 10 on an Enlarged Personed Orc (Dragonborn Water Orc if you want to go all out).  Take Shield Charge, Shield Slam, Shock Trooper, Knockback and some prerequisites, and use a +1 Valorous Skillful Spiked Shield of Bashing (plus any other mods you like).  Go nuts, basically by charging around the battlefield knocking over.  Every time you charge, anyone hit by your attack must save against your insane strength score or be dazed and tripped, which triggers a second attack (since you got Improved Trip from Wolf Totem).  You can attack everyone within reach with your attacks too.  Plus, you knock them back, meaning you can charge again next round, and because they're both dazed and tripped they can't actually do anything.  Shock Trooper even lets you aim where you knock them back to, allowing you to collect all the bad guys in a big pile and shove them around the battlefield.  And hey, you even do solid power attack damage.  Whee!

So, that's an idea.

JaronK

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Re: Help Min/Maxing
« Reply #10 on: November 17, 2008, 05:09:50 AM »
The level 3-8 range is pretty rewarding for heavy melee.  They get their neat tricks around these levels and, at the same time, they don't get utterly outclassed by spellcasters until levels 8, 9, 10, etc. (or probably 13-15ish for this group given the panzy mage).

Starting out, something along the lines of...

Human Whirling Frenzy Barbarian 1/Fighter 2

Get Combat Reflexes and Three Mountains style from Complete Warrior.  Ask about flaws and consider taking two if they're allowed so that you can get your feats right off.  Morningstars are decent one-handers if you want to use a shield, but I recommend using a greatclub for the better OHKOability it's got.  Level up in Barbarian as you go and take an Extra Rage so you can stay angry.  Beyond level 7 I'd say (Fighter 2/Barbarian 5) look for a nice PrC.  What's a nice PrC?  Good question, I'll tell you when I find one for this particular situation.

emissary666

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Re: Help Min/Maxing
« Reply #11 on: November 17, 2008, 12:03:45 PM »
Stats are determined by rolling. I have two 18s, a 16, a 4, a 11, and a 12. I already discussed bone with my DM. He said it has no level adjustment. Also, in case it has any effect, my character is NE.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Help Min/Maxing
« Reply #12 on: November 17, 2008, 01:45:08 PM »
From levels 3-8, non-casting melee can actually do fairly well. I'll second the suggestion for a spiked chain tripper. I'd go either goliath barbarian with the substitution level that makes you large when you rage, or maybe some kind of psychic warrior build. A couple of hexblade levels for a +3 to will saves wouldn't be a bad idea, either. Or maybe even a 2 level dip into monk, if you want to try grappling some.

I think Half-orc paragon combined with monk and hexblade should be fun. You can be a feral monk with an attitude problem. You'd have great saves, a +4 racial bonus to Str, and Rage.

Something like this (rearrange the order to taste):
HoP3/Monk2/Ftr1/Hexblade2

Feats: EWP: Spiked Chain (1), Extra Rage (3), Combat Expertise (m1), Improved Trip (m2), Improved Grapple (Ftr1), OPEN feat

Passive Way (Unearthed Arcana alternative monk fighting style) [spoiler]
The Passive Way focuses on making your opponent overreach himself or underestimate your skill.
 
1st-Level Skill Bonus:   Bluff.      
1st-Level Feat:   Combat Expertise.      
2nd-Level Feat:   Improved Trip.      
6th-Level Feat:   Improved Feint.      
6th-Level Bonus Ability:   You gain a +4 bonus on Strength checks made to trip an opponent who is denied his Dexterity bonus to Armor Class.      
Prerequisites:   Bluff 4 ranks, Sense Motive 4 ranks, Skill Focus (Bluff).    [/spoiler]

Base saves would be F+8, R+4, W+7
« Last Edit: November 17, 2008, 02:05:23 PM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

emissary666

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Re: Help Min/Maxing
« Reply #13 on: November 17, 2008, 09:22:18 PM »
What is HoP?
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woodenbandman

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Re: Help Min/Maxing
« Reply #14 on: November 17, 2008, 09:43:40 PM »
Half-Orc Paragon. It's a 3 level class that grants you +2 strength, the ability to rage, and a medium BAB, among some other minor things.

emissary666

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Re: Help Min/Maxing
« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2008, 07:11:06 PM »
I'd like to shy away from half-orc
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Help Min/Maxing
« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2008, 07:12:34 PM »
Half-Orc Paragon. It's a 3 level class that grants you +2 strength, the ability to rage, and a medium BAB, among some other minor things.
It has full BAB, actually. The main thing it does is give you the ability to rage with no alignment restriction.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

woodenbandman

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Re: Help Min/Maxing
« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2008, 07:25:39 PM »
If I was you I'd take hexblade to 3 minimum for the easiest way that I know to get Mettle (Does Pious Templar or some class like that get it? I know Crusader does).

InnaBinder

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Re: Help Min/Maxing
« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2008, 07:57:19 PM »
If I was you I'd take hexblade to 3 minimum for the easiest way that I know to get Mettle (Does Pious Templar or some class like that get it? I know Crusader does).
yes, Pious Templar gets it.  1st level?  2nd? I forget.   ???
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skydragonknight

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Re: Help Min/Maxing
« Reply #19 on: November 20, 2008, 08:46:15 PM »
If I may offer a very atypical alternative:

Elan Psion. Take the Psicrystal. Manifest "Share Pain" on it and share "Vigor" with it if the fight actually looks hard.
18 Int, 18 Con, 16 dex, 4 Str...12 wis, 9 Cha(modified for race)

"Entagling Ectoplasm" as a cheap debuff. Ego Whip against non-sentient, non-mindless foes.

Probably Telepath for "Psionic Sugestion": target me, which is not only not against their nature but is a very reasonable suggestion so they should get a penalty. And later, "Hostile Empathic Transfer" which gives you a very real benefit to being in melee and allows you to send back all the pain they gave you.

Take the Improved Elan Resilience(CPsi) feat to as an immediate action spend power points to prevent damage at a rate of 4 damage/PP spent(instead of 2/PP as the racial ability).
Also Psionic Body and have almost exclusively psionic feats.
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