Author Topic: Duskblade into Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil  (Read 13883 times)

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Ubernoob

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Re: Duskblade into Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
« Reply #40 on: November 17, 2008, 02:17:23 AM »
At Innabinder: My apologies. There should have been the word wouldn't instead of would.

At Ubernoob: In the circumstances you state, then, a Duskblade 13 should be able to go straight to IotSV with just Heighten spell, since they have spontaneous casting. That sounds like a nice solution.

At All: If you have a prerequisite of the nature of "Requires the ability to cast 2nd level spells", is the Versatile Spellcasting trick a legal way to get in?

[I note that for the purposes of this question, let's assume that the metamagic feat used is Extend Spell]

By my reading, it is.

I would be interested to hear validated arguments to the contrary (BTW, this is me attempting reasoned debate, not baiting  :angel)

C.
No, because only Heighten spell actually changes a spell's level.  Please, people.  Read your PHBs (and PHB2s in the case of retraining, which is totally different and an actual rule unlike rebuilding) before commenting.

If you have heighten and earth spell you CAN get early entry into stuff and per the rules retrain away the feats.  Heck, you could get in with Duskblade 9 if you had the requisite feats and earth spell.  However:
Duskblade 13, feat prereqs for Iot7V, heighten spell does in fact qualify for Iot7V.
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Callix

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Re: Duskblade into Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
« Reply #41 on: November 17, 2008, 02:33:19 AM »
To the point: A Human Sorceror 1 with Heighten Spell, Versatile Spellcaster and a Charisma bonus can (in theory) cast a 4th-level spell. He still needs to meet any other prerequisites for an early PrC.
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Duskblade into Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
« Reply #42 on: November 17, 2008, 03:01:56 AM »
To the point: A Human Sorceror 1 with Heighten Spell, Versatile Spellcaster and a Charisma bonus can (in theory) cast a 4th-level spell. He still needs to meet any other prerequisites for an early PrC.

I can see getting a second level spell.  How do you get fourth?
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Callix

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Re: Duskblade into Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
« Reply #43 on: November 17, 2008, 03:03:37 AM »
To the point: A Human Sorceror 1 with Heighten Spell, Versatile Spellcaster and a Charisma bonus can (in theory) cast a 4th-level spell. He still needs to meet any other prerequisites for an early PrC.

I can see getting a second level spell.  How do you get fourth?
By misremembering Versatile Spellcaster, of course.

One 2nd-level spell. Anything good come of this?
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The_Mad_Linguist

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Re: Duskblade into Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
« Reply #44 on: November 17, 2008, 03:42:33 AM »
To the point: A Human Sorceror 1 with Heighten Spell, Versatile Spellcaster and a Charisma bonus can (in theory) cast a 4th-level spell. He still needs to meet any other prerequisites for an early PrC.

I can see getting a second level spell.  How do you get fourth?
By misremembering Versatile Spellcaster, of course.

One 2nd-level spell. Anything good come of this?
Combine with arcane preparation to qualify for the ultimate magus prc as a level 2 sorc?

Hmm... you could take the magical training feat from the FRCS (gain the ability to cast two cantrips - different from similar feats which give you two spell-likes instead), and combine that with versatile spellcaster and heighten spell to qualify as casting level 1 spontaneous spells without actually taking a level in a spontaneous casting class.

Of course, that's pretty much strictly inferior to taking magical training and precocious apprentice which gives you a second level spell without taking a level in a casting class. 
« Last Edit: November 17, 2008, 03:51:15 AM by The_Mad_Linguist »
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Callix

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Re: Duskblade into Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
« Reply #45 on: November 17, 2008, 03:55:59 AM »
Combine with arcane preparation to qualify for the ultimate magus prc as a level 2 sorc?

Hmm... you could take the magical training feat from the FRCS (gain the ability to cast two cantrips - different from similar feats which give you two spell-likes instead), and combine that with versatile spellcaster and heighten spell to qualify as casting level 1 spontaneous spells without actually taking a level in a spontaneous casting class.

Of course, that's pretty much strictly inferior to taking magical training and precocious apprentice which gives you a second level spell without taking a level in a casting class. 
Of course, all these early Ultimate Magus entries forget that a single level of a PrC can't advance the same casting progression twice. Otherwise, Wiz 5 with Spontaneous Divination would rule the world.

And yes, for 2nd-level spells, Precocious Apprentice > Versatile Spellcaster.
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Caedrus

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Re: Duskblade into Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
« Reply #46 on: November 17, 2008, 04:08:44 AM »
Well, consider the situation of a human, 1st level Wizard with Magical Training, Versatile Spellcaster & Heighten Spell (let's assume a flaw for the sake of the argument).

They should be able to, theoretically, convert their two 1st level spells (assume a decent Intelligence) into one second level, thus covering the arcane-side of Mystic Theurge.

With respect to the Mad Linguist, I thought that the Precocious Apprentice Question had been answered, albeit with a Sage ruling. I also seem to remember a response from Richard Baker, as well. If someone has the link, that would be handy. Of course, your game is your game.

So, here's a question for all of you:  

I believe that the Versatile Spellcaster Trick, in conjunction with Heighten Spell, allows for the prerequisite of 'Can cast 2nd levels spells' in a build like this:

[Please note that I am ignoring the skills prerequisites for clarity]

Human Cleric 1 / Wizard 1 / [X] 2

Feats:

Human: Magical Training (PGtF)
L1: Heighten Spell (PHB)
L3: Versatile Spellcaster.

What are your thoughts?

C.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2008, 04:10:52 AM by Caedrus »
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Callix

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Re: Duskblade into Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
« Reply #47 on: November 17, 2008, 06:56:46 AM »
1) The Precocious Apprentice ruling is prefaced "In the Sage's opinion". It's a suggested houserule.
2) You don't need Magical Training in that build; you can qualify for V.S. using the cleric's spontaneous Cure/Inflict.
3) Yes, you can take Mystic Theurge 1 at level 4. Whoop-de-doo. It's Mystic Theurge on Cleric/Wizard. If you want an arcane-divine dual caster, go Bard/Ur-Priest/Sublime Chord/Mystic Theurge. 9th-level spells from both lists in 11 levels. 13 if you want Rebuke Undead and Song of Arcane Power.
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Caedrus

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Re: Duskblade into Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
« Reply #48 on: November 17, 2008, 07:43:47 AM »
Absolutely. The combination of Sublime Chord and Ur-Priest is ridiculously powerful. However - and I will be the first to admit that this is purely a roleplaying consideration - I think that Ur-Priest is very challenging to integrate into a good party, which (IMHO) most groups use.

Further to your point - if you use Dragon Magazine, #325 has a feat that adds your spellcasting classes together for one specialist school. Add this to the Song of Arcane Power, Practiced Spellcaster or two, an Ankh of Ascension, some Prayer Beads and you have a serious Holy Word bombing.

Just as an aside, if you can tolerate the loss of a caster level (yes, I know...), Dread Witch goes very nicely after Cleric 1 / Wizard 1 (but you do need Precocious Apprentice for this one).

Forgive me. You know how everyone has that Prestige Class they love, just because they do, regardless of the optimisation ability?

Mine's the Mystic Theurge. What can I say?

C.
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Callix

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Re: Duskblade into Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
« Reply #49 on: November 17, 2008, 08:20:53 AM »
It's fine. Also, the original 3.0 Ur-Priest, from Manual of the Planes, was just someone who denied the gods and stole magic from them. They were no more evil than rogues. 3.5 decided to make atheists evil.

If you still have issues with Ur-Priests, 7 levels of cleric casting followed by Bard 1/Sublime Chord 2/Mystic Theurge 8 using either Alternate Spell Source or Southern Magician to get into SC has 9th-level spells on both sides (Cleric 17, Sublime Chord 10).
Seeker of the Misty Isle can get Listen as a class skill, so you have a hope in hell of getting 13 ranks, as well as Perform, but needs ranks in Survival. Slightly MAD, as you're Wis/Cha casting and need loads of skill points.
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ChristopherGroves

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Re: Duskblade into Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
« Reply #50 on: November 17, 2008, 09:37:10 AM »
Heh ... mines the Divine Crusader as a PrC and the Favored Soul as a PrC.

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Duskblade into Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
« Reply #51 on: November 17, 2008, 01:38:52 PM »
It's fine. Also, the original 3.0 Ur-Priest, from Manual of the Planes, was just someone who denied the gods and stole magic from them. They were no more evil than rogues. 3.5 decided to make atheists evil.
I don't remember Ur-Priest in MotP (and I own the book). The first place I remember seeing them was in the Book of Vile Darkness, which was also 3.0.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Tshern

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Re: Duskblade into Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
« Reply #52 on: November 17, 2008, 02:32:41 PM »
It's fine. Also, the original 3.0 Ur-Priest, from Manual of the Planes, was just someone who denied the gods and stole magic from them. They were no more evil than rogues. 3.5 decided to make atheists evil.
I don't remember Ur-Priest in MotP (and I own the book). The first place I remember seeing them was in the Book of Vile Darkness, which was also 3.0.
And in BoVD they have evil alignment as a prerequisite. Naturally.

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StPeteGamer

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Re: Duskblade into Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
« Reply #53 on: November 17, 2008, 04:28:47 PM »
Where is the 3.5 Ur-Priest located than?

PhaedrusXY

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Re: Duskblade into Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
« Reply #54 on: November 17, 2008, 04:34:42 PM »
Where is the 3.5 Ur-Priest located than?
Complete Divine, I think.
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Callix

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Re: Duskblade into Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
« Reply #55 on: November 17, 2008, 04:57:35 PM »
It's fine. Also, the original 3.0 Ur-Priest, from Manual of the Planes, was just someone who denied the gods and stole magic from them. They were no more evil than rogues. 3.5 decided to make atheists evil.
I don't remember Ur-Priest in MotP (and I own the book). The first place I remember seeing them was in the Book of Vile Darkness, which was also 3.0.
And in BoVD they have evil alignment as a prerequisite. Naturally.
Yeah, my bad. It's always been evil. It's just that... how evil is it to decide that none of the gods suit you, but you'd still like the power of divine magic? It feels like it's evil for the sake of being evil; so WotC can say "We weren't encouraging atheism. Look, you have to be evil to be an atheist."

Anyway, that's just one of those issues that bugs me.

3.5 Ur-Priest is in Complete Divine. It's strong, but it strips you of any divine casting you had beforehand; that's why it's so often used in dual-casters and multi-threat builds.
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PhaedrusXY

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Re: Duskblade into Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
« Reply #56 on: November 17, 2008, 05:33:37 PM »
It's fine. Also, the original 3.0 Ur-Priest, from Manual of the Planes, was just someone who denied the gods and stole magic from them. They were no more evil than rogues. 3.5 decided to make atheists evil.
I don't remember Ur-Priest in MotP (and I own the book). The first place I remember seeing them was in the Book of Vile Darkness, which was also 3.0.
And in BoVD they have evil alignment as a prerequisite. Naturally.
Yeah, my bad. It's always been evil. It's just that... how evil is it to decide that none of the gods suit you, but you'd still like the power of divine magic? It feels like it's evil for the sake of being evil; so WotC can say "We weren't encouraging atheism. Look, you have to be evil to be an atheist."
Most of the stuff in the BoVD is like that; pointlessly evil. AFAIK, that is where the class originated, so it's no surprize that it is like that. Evil halflings, that are just like normal halflings, but evil? Check. The same thing for humans? Check. The Nipple Clamp of Exquisite Pain? Check. Retarded? Check. The BoED is even worse, though. Ravages: poison that isn't evil, because it only causes undue suffering to evil people. WTF.  :wall

Quote
3.5 Ur-Priest is in Complete Divine. It's strong, but it strips you of any divine casting you had beforehand; that's why it's so often used in dual-casters and multi-threat builds.
The class hardly changed at all in the reprint. It had the same thing in the 3.0 version. It's used in duel-caster and multi-threat builds because it is one of the few ways to get 9th level spells and still have lots of levels left in the build for other things.
« Last Edit: November 17, 2008, 05:36:12 PM by PhaedrusXY »
[spoiler]
A couple of water benders, a dike, a flaming arrow, and a few barrels of blasting jelly?

Sounds like the makings of a gay porn film.
...thanks
[/spoiler]

Sunic_Flames

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Re: Duskblade into Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
« Reply #57 on: November 17, 2008, 05:56:33 PM »
Most 'mature' content is like that. It's either porn for the sake of porn, or immaturity for 'mature' people.

BoED + BoVD = 6 year old morality, complete with pretty = good and ugly = bad. And oh yeah, if you have sex out of the missionary position you are going to HELL!
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altpersona

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Re: Duskblade into Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
« Reply #58 on: November 17, 2008, 06:28:22 PM »
personally i was hoping that part wasnt true.
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Re: Duskblade into Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil
« Reply #59 on: November 17, 2008, 06:49:07 PM »
And oh yeah, if you have sex out of the missionary position you are going to HELL!

Completely true, because my ex's grandmother said so and we all know that 82 year old diehard fanatic catholics can never  be wrong...