Author Topic: My Dark Dervish.. lots of help needed!  (Read 3186 times)

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Morgoloth

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My Dark Dervish.. lots of help needed!
« on: May 20, 2008, 02:08:38 PM »
*waves* So hello everyone. Now I should start off as always by stating I don't know anywhere near as much D&D as you all seem to. All those terms and mechanics you all throw out eventually just serve to confuse me unless I really sit down and think about it. Think about it hard. But, with your help, I've been able to overcome some common misconceptions about D&D and learn how to look at it optimally. I've learned how much more efficient it is for me to be a battlefield controlling Wizard and not trying to mem Fireball all the time. I've learned that a Druid is actually very scary, especially when you open out more books to them. I've even learned that Clerics can be all you want them to be and don't -have- to be healbots!

So, now I'm looking at the other end of it and I'm trying to learn about those wacky melee characters. The ones that, I'm assuming, are the actual hard hitting lunatics? I mean I've seen a friend of mine hit with a Swashbuckler of her's and she's not even optimized and she's doing more than my paltry spells would have before. So! I'm hoping to get into this by having one of my old Freeform RP characters recreated into an optimized cutting machine!

Now, the original character was a dark elf (no, he wasn't some chaotic good ranger who patrolled the Silver Marches :lol: ), but I can change up the character and make him human if need be, but I don't want to deviate from either or. He did use two weapons, a longsword and a short sword if I remember correctly, but again, this can all be changed in the name of optimization! His fighting style emphasized quick, precise strikes, rather than overwhelming brute strength. His stats were around 18, 16, 14, 14, 12 and 10 and let's say he has ten levels to his name. I would prefer the use of the Core, Complete, and ToB books, though if you could point out something devastating from another source, I'd try to see if I can fit it in with his backstory.

But please, I would like to not bother you guys again with this so if you can cite sourcebooks, it'd be real helpful. This way, I can better understand and not have to bug you all with matters like this. Thanks again. :)

Prime32

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Re: My Dark Dervish.. lots of help needed!
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2008, 02:52:30 PM »
(It's normal for fighters to out-damage mages, don't worry)


For two-weapon fighting, you'll probably have levels in fighter or ranger. Ranger doesn't need a high Dex score, but as they can only use TWF in light armour, you'll have one anyway. The Complete Warrior version of the samurai also gets TWF, but is regarded as one of the weakest classes in the game, as it amounts to a fighter with his feats chosen for him (and fighters are already regarded as weak).

The scout class from Complete Adventurer gets bonuses while moving, and synergises well with the dervish.

If you want to fight with two kinds of weapon, take levels in tempest from Complete Adventurer - it lets Weapon Focus and similar feats apply to both weapons.

The dervish class from Complete Warrior does not have any explicit TWF abilities, but is clearly designed for them (especially if they use scimitars). The bloodclaw master from Tome of Battle removes penalties for TWF.

The eternal blade (ToB, elves and half-elves only) class lets you make a lot of attacks as its capstone. So does the arcane duelist. If you want to enter that class without multiclassing beforehand, I suggest the duskblade (Player's Handbook 2) which has Full BAB, 6th-level spells, and can channel spells through its attacks.


Take a long look at the abilities of the drow race and ask if you want them (level adjustments often aren't worth it). If no, go with a human - one of the best races.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2008, 02:57:48 PM by Prime32 »
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Shadeseraph

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Re: My Dark Dervish.. lots of help needed!
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2008, 02:56:19 PM »
Ok, first and foremost: citing the optimization mantra, TWF (two weapon fighting) is unoptimal compared to THW (Two-handed Weapons). Mainly because of the way Power attack gets increased with multipliers. That is, unless you have an alternate source of damage. Usually, some options arise:

1) Tome of Battle: A build centered around Dancing Mongoose/Raging Mongoose (both tiger claw maneouvers) and Time Stand Still, abusing the power of the Stormguard Warrior tactical feat can do almost as much damage as you could need. All you need to do that is Tome of Battle. Some multiclassing and Telflammar Shadowlord, from Unapproachable East, can give you huge amounts of damage, and the ability to distribute the damage between multiple enemies.

2) A ranger/scout(Complete Adventurer) with Swift Hunter (Complete Scoundrel) and a single barbarian level with the substitution class feature from Complete champion Lion Totem can pretty much obliterate anything even on early levels. Alternatively, Telflammar Shadowlord is even more helpful here than in the previous option. The ranger spell Hunter's Eye, from Complete Scoundrel (I think) gives you sneak attack equal to 1/3 your caster level, which can be pretty helpful, too.

3) A Gish (Warrior Mage character type, not a class) would be able to work pretty well. Classes like Unseen Seer (complete mage) gives you access to the spell mentioned above, hunter's eye. Persistent (persistent spell is a metamagic feat from complete arcane) hunter's eye + persistent wraithtouch (spell from the spell compendium) + power attack + Arcane Strike (complete warrior) + distract assaillant (Complete Adventurer) can give you an edge. But if you wanted to go this way, you could just turn into a 12-headed hydra and throw those paltry blades away.

4) A Swasbuckler(complete warrior)/rogue with the feat Daring Outlaw can do pretty well.

Look at some of those, tell us if you like any of them, and let us know ^^.

Lastly, as Prime32 said, Level adjustment is usually hard to overcome. And TWF builds are usually feat starved, so human is IMO a far better option.
« Last Edit: May 20, 2008, 02:59:46 PM by Shadeseraph »
[spoiler]
I hate mouth breathing fuckwits who go around spouting lies, even after being corrected on those lies, and that bait mods into helping to defend their wrongness and fail. I also hate the MBFs that don't understand the meaning of words, and that can't get a fucking clue.
Hey! I like spouting lies. It's very entertaining to observe how people on the internet are buffing their small egos by declaring victories over some stupid MBFs. :smirk
Also - I hate people who use too smart words that I don't understand. :mad

Hi Welcome

Go fuck yourself, because others won't do it for you.

Stop flirting you two.  :p
[/spoiler]

Prime32

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Re: My Dark Dervish.. lots of help needed!
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2008, 03:00:14 PM »
I suggest telling us which mental ability score would be most important to your character - it would narrow down the builds.
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Infinitive

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Re: My Dark Dervish.. lots of help needed!
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2008, 05:06:03 PM »
Ok, first and foremost: citing the optimization mantra, TWF (two weapon fighting) is unoptimal compared to THW (Two-handed Weapons). Mainly because of the way Power attack gets increased with multipliers. That is, unless you have an alternate source of damage. Usually, some options arise:

Not quite correct- TWF is strictly inferior as compared to a 2H power attacker unless you have an additional source of damage, that applies each time you hit.  Those big 2Her builds generally focus one the one big leap attack to get their mojo on.

1) Tome of Battle: A build centered around Dancing Mongoose/Raging Mongoose (both tiger claw maneouvers) and Time Stand Still, abusing the power of the Stormguard Warrior tactical feat can do almost as much damage as you could need. All you need to do that is Tome of Battle. Some multiclassing and Telflammar Shadowlord, from Unapproachable East, can give you huge amounts of damage, and the ability to distribute the damage between multiple enemies.

You're on the right track here, but the solution is actually much simpler: this fine young gentleman wants a Swordsage.  The Tiger Claw maneuvers will be useful, of course, but the real beef going in here is Assassins' Stance, which ought to net him 2d6 Sneak Attack at first level.  Further, after a few levels, he'll get to add his dex to any damage he deals, which ought to really supercharge things.

3) A Gish (Warrior Mage character type, not a class) would be able to work pretty well. Classes like Unseen Seer (complete mage) gives you access to the spell mentioned above, hunter's eye. Persistent (persistent spell is a metamagic feat from complete arcane) hunter's eye + persistent wraithtouch (spell from the spell compendium) + power attack + Arcane Strike (complete warrior) + distract assaillant (Complete Adventurer) can give you an edge. But if you wanted to go this way, you could just turn into a 12-headed hydra and throw those paltry blades away.

Lastly, as Prime32 said, Level adjustment is usually hard to overcome. And TWF builds are usually feat starved, so human is IMO a far better option.

+1 to both sentiments here, though I'm going to present an alternative gish.

All right, Morgoloth, here's a pair of powerful builds for you to choose from  The first is a classic TWFer that does its best to really abuse Swordsage, and the second is a personal favorite of mine- the bag-of-dice rogue gish.  Both assume 10th level, and neither include whatever gear you prefer.

Human (you need the feat)
Swordsage 4/ Swashbuckler 3/ Nightsong Enforcer 3

Feats:
1: Two Weapon Fighting, Combat Expertise
2: Weapon Finesse (Swash)
3: Deadly Defense (Complete Scoundrel)
6: Vexing Flanker (PHB2)
9: Improved TWF

Stats:
Str: 10
Dex: 20 (+2 from levels)
Con: 14
Int: 16
Wis: 12
Cha: 14

BAB: +9

Damage: 1d6 (Rapier/Shortsword) + 4d6 (Sneak Attack) + 1d6 (Deadly Defense) + Dex + Int

Make sure to alternate levels of Swordsage and Swashbuckler as you level, to give you the most possible mileage in terms of maneuvers.  After you're done with Nightsong Enforcer (or have gone as far as you care to), pick up another level or two of Swordsage or a Maneuver-granting PrC in order to continue juicing your Initiator Level and available maneuvers.

Option B:

Human
Rogue 3/ Wizard (Diviner) 1/ Fighter 1/ Unseen Seer 4 (Complete Mage)/ Spellsword 1 (Complete Warrior)  (Build finishes with 10 levels of Arcane Trickster, out of the DMG)

Feats:
1: Combat Expertise, Improved Feint
2: Scribe Scroll (Wizard)/ Weapon Finesse (Fighter)- your call on whether to take Fighter or Wiz at 2nd level
3: Deadly Defense
4: Whichever you didn't grab at 2nd level
6: Practiced Spellcaster
9: Staggaring Strike (Complete Adventurer or Warrior- AFB right now)

Stats:
Str: 10
Dex: 20 (+2 from levels)
Con: 14
Int: 14
Wis: 12
Cha: 16

BAB: +7

Caster levels:
Divination: 12
Other: 8
Max Spell level: 4

Relevant options: grab the Rogue Alternate Class Feature from Dungeonscape that allows you to deal 1/2 your precision damage to anything that you can't normally sneak attack.  Get a Tiny Viper familiar.  Make SURE to get the Insightful Feint spell from the Spell Compendium- the whole build revolves around its use.

Relevant skill checks:
Bluff: +21    (13 +3 (Cha) +2 (Masterwork tool- PHB) +3 (Familiar))

Insightful Feint will allow you to make your feint in combat as a one-per-round free action, and will give you a +10 to that check- since few creatures/enemies have decent Sense Motive checks, you're going to be rolling at +21 over what their best BAB should be- meaning that you should render your enemies flat-footed even if you roll a 1 and they roll a 20.  A side benefit is that you'll even have a 50/50 or better chance to feint things of even animal intelligence- all for a single minor action and a first-level spell (that doesn't provoke AoOs).  Part B is that you then have several second- and third level spell slots that you get to devote to powering up your attacks!  Here's how you can deal more damage in a single attack than a big 2H leap attacker, and then to restrict your target to a single action in its response:

+1 Spell Storing Vicious Rapier (total enhancement +3)
Damage (Max): 20d6+1, avg. 71 (1d6 (Rapier) + 2d6 (Vicious) + 12d6 (Scorching Ray in rapier) + 4d6 (Sneak Attack) + 1d6 (Weapon Capsule, Complete Adventurer) +1 (Enhancement))
Damage (Normal): 7d6+1, avg. 25  (1d6 (Rapier) + 2d6 (Vicious) + 4d6 (Sneak Attack) +1 (Enhancement))

And remember, whatever that number is on the damage side of things is the Fort save you're forcing on your target to have more than a single action on their turn (Thanks to S. Strike).

Hope you enjoy!
Persistance: Because sometimes you're the gnome, and sometimes you're the dragon.

Morgoloth

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Re: My Dark Dervish.. lots of help needed!
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2008, 11:27:16 AM »
That's great stuff! All very clear and helpful. This is exactly what I was looking for with my former dark elf. I hear many praises for ToB and I've been telling myself I have to sit down and really peruse it. This is extra motivation, thank you! :)

Now here's a little trickier one though. I have another character, one of my absolute favorites. He's this Amnian cockney rhyming type of guy. Heavily backstoried, lots of RP flavor with him, but he wasn't exactly made with optimization in mind. He was a scout in the Amnian army before becoming a priest of Shar.. eventually redeeming himself and becoming a good aligned priest. Now he uses his priestly magic to boost himself in combat or the sort. Not much of a "I will destroy your army with earthquake" but more of a "I will sneak into your general's tent and whack him" kind of guy. :)

So again, with him, let's say the same starting stats (18, 16, 14, 14, 12, 10). Human. Fifteen levels. The first two have to be either Rogue, Ranger, or something similar to it (originally he was a Ranger but we can change it for optimization). Afterwards, the levels can be used to help make him into a more martial character, but the Cleric spellcasting has to be there somewhere. I've heard of Prestige Classes out there that coupled with DMM Persistent can make them into very tough melee combatants? Oh, also, he too Dual Wields. The cusp of it is during his priesthood to Shar, he gains the Shade template (from Forgotten Realms) so I don't know if we have to throw that into any kooky equations. :)

Thanks again for all the help on this, I highly appreciate it!

Prime32

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Re: My Dark Dervish.. lots of help needed!
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2008, 12:16:40 PM »
What about prestige paladin (or anti-paladin) or prestige ranger? 15-level PrCs with full BAB and half spellcasting.
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Morgoloth

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Re: My Dark Dervish.. lots of help needed!
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2008, 01:28:08 PM »
Hm. I had never seen those before but it doesn't seem very optimal. One of the biggest mantras I see in the Op boards is you should not relinquish a spellcasting level unless you absolutely must.

Prime32

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Re: My Dark Dervish.. lots of help needed!
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2008, 02:22:49 PM »
Hm. I had never seen those before but it doesn't seem very optimal. One of the biggest mantras I see in the Op boards is you should not relinquish a spellcasting level unless you absolutely must.
Umm... you're multiclassing already. If you want to be a ranger, this class is better for you than the base class.
My work
The tier system in a nutshell:
[spoiler]Tier 6: A cartographer.
Tier 5: An expert cartographer or a decent marksman.
Tier 4: An expert marksman.
Tier 3: An expert marksman, cartographer and chef who can tie strong knots and is trained in hostage negotiation or a marksman so good he can shoot down every bullet fired by a minigun while armed with a rusted single-shot pistol that veers to the left.
Tier 2: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything, or the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.
Tier 1: Someone with teleportation, mind control, time manipulation, intangibility, the ability to turn into an exact duplicate of anything and the ability to see into the future with perfect accuracy.[/spoiler]

Morgoloth

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Re: My Dark Dervish.. lots of help needed!
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2008, 04:10:01 PM »
Oh. You said fifteen levels, so I thought you meant to look into taking the Prestige Ranger for as many levels as I could. For the base class, most definitely, yes, thank you. :) But Prestige Ranger over any other choices for a two level dip?