This IS The Thread You're Looking For: First Look At 4E Quickplay!

[highbulp]

I am also more than a little disturbed by an earlier preview which showed invisibility as a lv16 spell which requires the wizard to continuously channel as a minor action each round. Mirror image just adds AC (which decreases with each miss), while displacement simply lets you reroll an opponent's attack roll (can't remember if it is a daily or encounter power).

Yep, seems like most of the spells we all know and loved will be nerfed terribly...

Though is it because they are so good that we love those spells? Maybe now they're just being brought down to a regular level. So Mirror Image adds a level-appropriate amount of AC, rather than providing an awesome miss chance. Just because something isn't as good doesn't mean it's now bad.

I'm sure there will be new strong spells for us to love, or spells that we can learn to love in their own right because of the flavor/mechanic/whatnot.

[ImperiousLeader]

I am also more than a little disturbed by an earlier preview which showed invisibility as a lv16 spell which requires the wizard to continuously channel as a minor action each round. Mirror image just adds AC (which decreases with each miss), while displacement simply lets you reroll an opponent's attack roll (can't remember if it is a daily or encounter power).

Yep, seems like most of the spells we all know and loved will be nerfed terribly...

It definitely seems as though the wizard's defenses have been significantly reduced in 4e. This, in my mind, is a good thing, as it makes wizards rely more on their teammates for defense, strengthening the team aspect of the game.

[ninjarabbit]

Damn, they turned mirror image into a crappy mage armor. What's next, saying that mage armor gives you ASF? Mirror image was nice but nowwhere near overpowered, greater mirror image on the other hand......

[phelanarcetus]

No, but Mirror Image was a whole extra set of rolls and bookkeeping introduced.  That's one of the things that they've definitely talked about cutting down.  Every attack has to take a random roll to determine if it's you or an image, then roll against either your AC or the image's AC... it's one of those slowdowns that isn't necessarily bad, but is complex.

[Pan-Fried Hamster]

I'm still trying to get my head around multiclassing.  I haven't played a 4e trial run or anything, and all this is based off what I found at dnd4.com, so I know I'm not in a great position to talk.  Still, I'm attempting to work out how much of a difference multiclassing makes depending on what order you take the classes, or what classes you take to begin with.

As best as I can tell, the following are things that used to hinge on how you classed are now (mostly) independent of it:

BAB: 1/2 your level.  Class appears to be totally irrelevant, since the attacks you use hinge off your relevant ability score, including the caster stats for spells.

Saves: You get 2 pts of bonuses based on class, but it's not a huge gap like it used to be.

Skills: Ability mod + 1/2 your level.  5 if trained.  Every class picks 4, Rogues add Stealth and Thievery for free, and Rangers get Nature/Dungeoneering.  Seems like class doesn't matter too much here.

As far as what still depends on classes:

Class Features, obviously.

HP.  The range seems to be 4 (Wizard) to 6 (Fighter), so it's much closer, but the gulf does increase as you level up.

...that seems to be it.  Am I missing anything?  Did I get anything wrong?  I've always been a fan of caster-favoring gish builds, and I was wondering if it'd be better to go Fighter first, or Wizard.  By the looks of this, I'm leaning more towards Wizard -> Fighter (though I'm curious about Sorcerer and Spellblade as well, but they're in the PHB2).

[highbulp]

Multi-classing (at least as we've seen it so far) is much more of a dipping process. First you pick your class (say, Fighter or Wizard). You then take the multi-classing feat in order to get a few abilities of the other class. So you'd either be playing a Fighter who can occasionally cast a spell, or a Wizard who can occasionally use an exploit/mark. So far, it doesn't look like you can really play a nice Fighter/Wizard right out of the gate. You might have to wait for the Swordmage when FRCS comes out.

[Pan-Fried Hamster]

By and large, I have to admit I like the changes in 4e: less "oh crap I failed one save and now I'm dead."  It's harder to die, it's harder to rez, it's harder to have one party member who's insanely better than the rest of the group combined.  To me that seems like a change in the right direction.

But.

The other side of me absolutely loves the number crunching, and the feeling that by *working* on my character build and the direction I want to go, I can get some payoff.  Right now I've got a gish going who will end up with 17 BAB and 17th Wizard casting, with full CL.  It's nothing more than a basic Ftr/Wiz/SS/EK build (largely because the DM is phobic of single level dips), but it's a rewarding feeling to know that I can come out of it with a solid version of what I envisioned, due to preparation.  I'm worried about not getting that same sense of "work and reward" with 4e.

[phelanarcetus]

That's something I'm slightly worried about as well.  Of course, I haven't seen what the options are.

For one of the 3.5 games I'm in right now, I have a table embedded in the google doc I use for a character sheet (leveling while at work when the XP email comes through is nice, as is tweaking the build at work).  It's a moderately complex build, definitely the most complex in the game; Fighter 2 / Hexblade 3 / Blackguard 3 / Occult Slayer 5 / Disciple of Dispater 7.  A lot of adjustments to prereqs based on houserules.  But I sat there planning this, shifting rows around to try and maximize the benefits.  For example, making sure that Blackguard 3 comes at level 9 so I can take Divine Might without waiting.  I did a lot of shifting to ensure that.  Everything after 9 is actually open to adjustment in terms of ordering.

As much as I take pride in the tight build, I would not be sad to see changes that prevent me from having to put in that much effort.

Can all my concepts be executed in 4th Edition?  I don't know.  I don't even have a single consolidated list of concepts anymore... I have a folder on the shelf, a directory on my laptop, and a google doc... some overlap between them.

[MittenNinja]

Can all my concepts be executed in 4th Edition?  I don't know.  I don't even have a single consolidated list of concepts anymore... I have a folder on the shelf, a directory on my laptop, and a google doc... some overlap between them.

Probably not right out of the gate, much the same way you couldn't do some things with 3e core. But given some time I'm sure you will be able to use all your current concepts.

[ninjarabbit]

No, but Mirror Image was a whole extra set of rolls and bookkeeping introduced.  That's one of the things that they've definitely talked about cutting down.  Every attack has to take a random roll to determine if it's you or an image, then roll against either your AC or the image's AC... it's one of those slowdowns that isn't necessarily bad, but is complex.

But 4th edition mirror image just doesn't feel like mirror image anymore. I understand wanting to cut back on some of the stuff but face it, if if you play D&D you like to roll dice.

And if you really think mirror image is that complex you might be better suited for the Hello Kitty Adventure Island RPG.

[PhoenixInferno]

No, but Mirror Image was a whole extra set of rolls and bookkeeping introduced.  That's one of the things that they've definitely talked about cutting down.  Every attack has to take a random roll to determine if it's you or an image, then roll against either your AC or the image's AC... it's one of those slowdowns that isn't necessarily bad, but is complex.

But 4th edition mirror image just doesn't feel like mirror image anymore. I understand wanting to cut back on some of the stuff but face it, if if you play D&D you like to roll dice.

I guess no one told you about Magic Missile.

[phelanarcetus]

No, but Mirror Image was a whole extra set of rolls and bookkeeping introduced.  That's one of the things that they've definitely talked about cutting down.  Every attack has to take a random roll to determine if it's you or an image, then roll against either your AC or the image's AC... it's one of those slowdowns that isn't necessarily bad, but is complex.

But 4th edition mirror image just doesn't feel like mirror image anymore. I understand wanting to cut back on some of the stuff but face it, if if you play D&D you like to roll dice.

And if you really think mirror image is that complex you might be better suited for the Hello Kitty Adventure Island RPG.

I wouldn't call it complex.  More complex than a straight AC boost?  Definitely.  The one actually complex thing is randomly selecting an image/PC when the total isn't a convenient die size.  Four images and me?  Roll d6 and re-roll 6s.  Not hard, but a hassle.  The goal seems to be to reduce bookkeeping and hassle.

[ninjarabbit]

No, but Mirror Image was a whole extra set of rolls and bookkeeping introduced.  That's one of the things that they've definitely talked about cutting down.  Every attack has to take a random roll to determine if it's you or an image, then roll against either your AC or the image's AC... it's one of those slowdowns that isn't necessarily bad, but is complex.

But 4th edition mirror image just doesn't feel like mirror image anymore. I understand wanting to cut back on some of the stuff but face it, if if you play D&D you like to roll dice.

I guess no one told you about Magic Missile.

Please tell me how they raped magic missle?

[MittenNinja]

Please tell me how they raped magic missle?

It involves attack rolls.

[Shigunaru]

Please tell me how they raped magic missle?

It involves attack rolls.

You need to learn a bit of tact, he could have a fragile heart you know?

[MittenNinja]

Please tell me how they raped magic missle?

It involves attack rolls.

You need to learn a bit of tact, he could have a fragile heart you know?

He needs to know. Better to know now and be prepared for it then be shocked when he tries to use it in game.

[ninjarabbit]

 :'(

[Shadeseraph]

He needs to know. Better to know now and be prepared for it then be shocked when he tries to use it in game.

And knowing is half the battle!

Wait, that doesn't even make sense here 

[jameswilliamogle]

I got a look at this mini-ruleset too.  Anyone want to run a game w/ it?

[highbulp]

I think I could find the time to play a PbP is someone wants to run Shadowfell