This IS The Thread You're Looking For: First Look At 4E Quickplay!

[Nox_Noctis]

Wait, are you sure that's 4E and not Magic the Gathering?

Close to the same response here. Upkeep?

At end of turn, I tap my fighter to deal 1 damage to your now-animated 1/1 forest (spell slot in this analogy perhaps?). Fear me.

[tsuyoshikentsu]

Yes, Push/Pull effects are powerful for that reason.  Some Warlord powers can be helpful to correct that, however.

Which I'm sure you can't tell us about.  But I hope they stop the Rogue attacks we've seen.

[brislove]

Well they definitely took some pieces of M:tg, i'm not convinced that was a bad thing. The rules didn't clearly define (well they did but it took some looking) when you took ongoing damage (being on fire) and such things. They cleaned it up and clarified how to take the steps so that in a turn based game the timing actually works.

I have been keeping up pretty well with 4e, I have keep on the shadowfell right here. I'm running it for the first time on thursday. I feel I have a pretty good grasp of all the rules that are out.

Enworld had a link to some images of a bunch of higher level wizard spells....here's a couple of the BC ones.

Wall of Ice
Wizard Attack: 15
Daily, Arcane, conjuration, cold
Standard Action
Effect: You conjure a contiguous wall. The wall can be up to 12 squares long, and 6 squares tall. The wall blocks line of sight and prevents movement. No creature can enter a square containing the wall. Any creature adjacent to the wall takes 2d6+(int mod) Cold damage at the start of that creatures turn.
Special: As a standard action, a creature can attack one square of the wall, each square has 50hp. Any creature that attacks the wall takes 2d6 cold damage. The wall has vulnerability to fire 25.

Prismatic Burst
Wizard attack 13
Encounter, Arcane, Radiant
Standard action, area 2 burst, within 20 squares
Target: each creature in burst
Attack: Intelligence Vs Will
hit: 3d6 + intelligence, and the target is blinded until the end of your next turn.

Thunderlance
Wizard Attack 13
Encounter, arcane, Thunder
Standard action: Close blast 5
Target: each creature in blast
Attack: Intelligence Vs. Reflex
hit: 4d6+int mod, and you push the target 4 squares.

The name for this power is cut off on my sheet lol
Wizard attack 13
Encounter, arcane, charm, psychic
targets: 1, 2 or 3 creatures
Attack: Int Vs. Will, one attack per target
Special: If you target only one creature with this power, you get +4 to hit with it.
Hit: 3d6+int, Psychic damage, and the target is immobilized.

As you can see, all the powers do deal damage, but the damage is basically and afterthought of the ability, there are more...if you look through http://www.enworld.org/showthread.php?t=221806 there. they are in the wizard section.

[PhoenixInferno]

About the Wizard - I just started playing one for the first time.  He's a Focused Conjurer (Complete Mage) and his big thing is spells like Grease and Glitterdust, and very little damage.  We have a Rogue, a Cleric and a Paladin.  Now, the meatshield - ah, I mean Paladin - is as green as The Great Gazoo.  I mean, I don't think she's ever gamed AT ALL.  So after the 1st play session, I heard complaints about how I do nothing in combat except hide.  Now the DM and the other two players are like..."whoa, we/you would be screwed without him" but since her big thing is killing things (and actually hates the role-playing part of the game), she sees my character through her lens and how "I do nothing".  It requires a certain level of sophistication to appreciate the non-direct damage ability of a Wizard, but a newbie doesn't see that.  Why should we saddle newbies with "non-optimality" because they think that damage is king instead of field control?  In that way, I can see how merging the "battlefield control" aspect with the "carpet bombing" aspect makes sense.  Killing monsters is an integral part of the D&D experience and if you can do damage to kill things AND empower your party to kill things better, I think I would have to call that a Good Thing^TM.

Nothing needed to be redacted.

[PhoenixInferno]

Yes, Push/Pull effects are powerful for that reason.  Some Warlord powers can be helpful to correct that, however.

Which I'm sure you can't tell us about.

I should hope that I don't have to tell you how powerful they are...

[brislove]

Yes, Push/Pull effects are powerful for that reason.  Some Warlord powers can be helpful to correct that, however.

Which I'm sure you can't tell us about.
I should hope that I don't have to tell you how powerful they are...

pfft, moving creatures into positions that aren't advantages for them...how is that good...oh right...

[Squirrelloid]

Only three pages till this devolved to LOLcatz?  Damn.

[Bozwevial]

Only three pages till this devolved to LOLcatz?  Damn.

Where's LogicNinja?

On topic, PI, I game with people like that a lot. Usually when they start whining about how I, in my various roles, am useless, I stop focusing my efforts to help on them. Then when they're almost screwed, I point out that this combat would have ended three rounds and 23 hitpoints earlier with my efforts from the beginning, then cast Grease/Glitterdust/What have you. It usually shuts them up

[phelanarcetus]

Yes, Push/Pull effects are powerful for that reason.  Some Warlord powers can be helpful to correct that, however.

Which I'm sure you can't tell us about.
I should hope that I don't have to tell you how powerful they are...

pfft, moving creatures into positions that aren't advantages for them...how is that good...oh right...
[ img ]http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/02/ive-got-the-high-ground.jpg[ /img ]

And until I scrolled far enough to see all of that, it looked like my cats last night when they stole my bread.

For most people, dealing damage is fun.  It takes an extra mental step for many to find the fun in neutralizing an opponent without blowing him up.  The beginners especially are less likely to recognize the power and fun of taking an opponent out through non-damaging effects.

In one of the games I play, which is on indefinite hiatus, sadly, the second most experienced player is our wizard.  I intentionally played a damage-dealing sorcerer; house rules help the sorc, but I needed to play something less optimal than I normally would.  I would feel bad playing a full on optimized caster and overshadowing everyone else easily (two of the players are basically completely unaware of game mechanics; our cleric has to take 4 sorc levels and then go into the homebrew True Necromancer class.  He has to do Sorc because he doesn't have the Int to go Wizard.  The goddamn pixie player is the reason we're on hiatus, and tends to show no interest unless she's the center of attention... and sulks every time she's ineffective in combat.)  So I managed to tie into the previous game with a cold-themed sorc, going into Frost Mage and exploiting the hell out of Frostburn (as well as being the second cousin of the character from the previous campaign).  Anyway, the second most experienced player, and the only one who'll ask me for advice, is playing a wizard.  What's her favorite spell at 1st level?  Magic Missile.  Not Sleep or Color Spray, but Magic Missile.  Because it's reliable damage.  Sadly, it was my primary spell as well, since the DM disallowed the Orb spells, and the first [Cold] spell was level 2.

[Shadeseraph]

Wall of Ice
Wizard Attack: 15

WTF! level 15? Now I'm sure that level 20 from 3.5 = level 30 from 4E.
Those spells look great, but as they don't say anything about their duration, I have to think that they only last for a single turn. The ice wall may be the exception.

Also, I don't mind if 4E has some kind of inspiration from M:tG. That would make some aspects of the game more explicit.

For most people, dealing damage is fun.  It takes an extra mental step for many to find the fun in neutralizing an opponent without blowing him up.  The beginners especially are less likely to recognize the power and fun of taking an opponent out through non-damaging effects.

So true. When I started to understand how the wizard works, the combat stopped being just "my enemy and me". Suddenly, the terrain was far more important. And I was amazed with the posibilities. That made my game so fun that now I try to avoid even SoD/SoS spells. It's like a black-blue deck on M:tG .

[PhoenixInferno]

On topic, PI, I game with people like that a lot. Usually when they start whining about how I, in my various roles, am useless, I stop focusing my efforts to help on them. Then when they're almost screwed, I point out that this combat would have ended three rounds and 23 hitpoints earlier with my efforts from the beginning, then cast Grease/Glitterdust/What have you. It usually shuts them up

Doesn't bother me at all, since we've all been in their shoes at one point or another.  I'm just pointing out that a newbie wizard's first instincts don't have to be wrong - if you can combine the two functions, which it seems higher level Wizard spells do.

But sometimes, you do need to find a fistfull of d6s and blow something away.

[phelanarcetus]

I prefer a fistful of d6+2s.

If that game ever gets started again.  Exploiting Control Temperature, Snowcasting, Cold Spell Specialization, and Frozen Magic for the win.

One is useless when one's actions actually accomplish nothing, consistently.  The pixie rogue who shoots herself in the foot repeatedly is useless.  So is the pixie rogue who decides that she's just going to hide during this combat and never take action.  Even worse is the pixie rogue who can't spare time away from her boyfriend who she effectively lives with for a session once a month, thus forcing the game into indefinite hold.  Sorry if I sound bitter.

[brislove]

Those spells look great, but as they don't say anything about their duration, I have to think that they only last for a single turn. The ice wall may be the exception.

Wall of Ice lasts an hour. The others are until the end of your next turn.

Also Sleep, lasts until someone makes a save, and it never becomes obsolete. no HD caps anymore.

[yellerSumner]

um, hi.  I'll be playing the part of newbie wizard who wants to blast things. *wave*

From my limited knowledge, wouldn't it be easier to balance Damage+Effect powers against Damage+Effect powers than it would be to balance Effect powers against Damage+Effect powers?

One is useless when one's actions actually accomplish nothing, consistently.  The pixie rogue who shoots herself in the foot repeatedly is useless.  So is the pixie rogue who decides that she's just going to hide during this combat and never take action.  Even worse is the pixie rogue who can't spare time away from her boyfriend who she effectively lives with for a session once a month, thus forcing the game into indefinite hold.  Sorry if I sound bitter.

Is there a reason you can't just get rid of a useless pixie rogue?  That just sounds terrible...

[Tazendra]

A pixie rogue doesn't have to be useless, it could be quite effective, once you get more than a couple levels in rogue.

[RobbyPants]

Wizard looks pretty much like a bad blaster mage.

I hope to find that WotCs definition for a "controller" is not for a character that hurts many opponents but for a real bc mage (GOD). We will see what powers/spells will be available for a wizard with the PHB. I am not sure if real bc is still possible for 4th edition because effects might only work till a DC 10 save. So the expected value for a save ends power are ~1.5 turns 

limsup

Yeah, it seems like the wizard is some sort of ranged striker.  So now the warmage is core, and the wizard is gone?  Yippie!

[phelanarcetus]

Is there a reason you can't just get rid of a useless pixie rogue?  That just sounds terrible...

Not the DM, game is small, this player is one of the primary reasons this campaign exists (it's parallel to another game which that player simply couldn't attend, as she works Sunday nights and that was the only really viable night for the rest of the group).  Basically, the only time this group can play, she feels she's unable to focus on the game (why losing 4 hours of boyfriend time one Saturday per month is a problem when she's with him almost every day and night, I don't know), and the DM would, for now at least, rather hold off on the game; until either she decides she does not want to play, or she decides she can focus on the game at that time.

A pixie rogue doesn't have to be useless, it could be quite effective, once you get more than a couple levels in rogue.

There's nothing wrong with a pixie rogue.  Just with this pixie rogue.  Greater Invisibility at will at ECL 4 (we've got a custom racial progression) and at least 20 Dex make an effective rogue archer.  Consistently rolling terribly, and actually fumbling enough times in one fight to knock yourself unconscious with self-inflicted arrow damage, however... that's another story.  The last few encounters involving constructs and undead?  Ah well, it happens.

[Squirrelloid]

On topic, PI, I game with people like that a lot. Usually when they start whining about how I, in my various roles, am useless, I stop focusing my efforts to help on them. Then when they're almost screwed, I point out that this combat would have ended three rounds and 23 hitpoints earlier with my efforts from the beginning, then cast Grease/Glitterdust/What have you. It usually shuts them up

Doesn't bother me at all, since we've all been in their shoes at one point or another.  I'm just pointing out that a newbie wizard's first instincts don't have to be wrong - if you can combine the two functions, which it seems higher level Wizard spells do.

But sometimes, you do need to find a fistfull of d6s and blow something away.

Bah, damage is never the answer.

Yes, I banned evocation, why do you ask?

Oh right, that's what Shadow Evocation is for...

[Shadeseraph]

Shadow Evocation can never outdo my precious fireball!!!! You, blasphemous!!!!

Oh, what the hell. Even if the battlefield control gets somewhat knocked down, I still want to try that 4E. It looks like, even with fails, it can still be great. And the only thing that hold me out initially, the multiclassing system, looks great after you throw some numbers.

That said, the skill system is still a no-no for me. I don't like the actual one too much, either, so maybe I will try some houseruling.

[Runestar]

I am also more than a little disturbed by an earlier preview which showed invisibility as a lv16 spell which requires the wizard to continuously channel as a minor action each round. Mirror image just adds AC (which decreases with each miss), while displacement simply lets you reroll an opponent's attack roll (can't remember if it is a daily or encounter power).

Yep, seems like most of the spells we all know and loved will be nerfed terribly...