So how do we make the Shugenja NOT suck?

[Kuroimaken]

Here's the thing. I'm putting together an oriental campaign, and that means there needs to be more Shugenja.

The problem is... as they are, Shugenja suck. BIG time. So I need to make 'em better.

First no-brainer is changing their spell lists. Those will need a major overhaul, but I'm not even sure where to begin.

Basically, the elements are divvy'd up like this:

Fire: we blast, blast, then blast s'more. We should be REALLY good at it. Maybe put a couple of SoDs, too.
Air: transport and illusion magic. Movement-related buffs should go here, too.
Water: primarily healing and divination. Ice spells go here too.
Earth: buffing, protection, and a bit of battlefield control, coupled with single-target imprisonment types (but no SoDs). Disintegrate is on their list for some reason, too.

The problem is that amped up spell lists alone won't do the job. We need to come up with some class features that match the elemental theme thingies better. (Hit/damage bonuses for Fire, higher CL/saves for air, etc.)

So, here's to hoping we can get somewhere.

[Elennsar]

What would be a sign it is capable of succeeding at what it chooses to do? What would be "sufficient ____ to be a good ____."?

Assuming for the sake of arguement that elemental specialization is a class feature we want to keep, so that we just need to make it work, rather than finding a way to drop it.

Shugenja (by WotC) don't compete with wizards or clerics, so if the only sense they suck is that they're not as good as either, that's not necesarily a flaw.

[bkdubs123]

Shugenja (by WotC) don't compete with wizards or clerics, so if the only sense they suck is that they're not as good as either, that's not necesarily a flaw.

This is kinda what I was thinking, myself. They can still use scrolls and activate a bevy of magical devices. They are still more powerful than Rogues, Warblades, or Warlocks. Do they really need to be better?

Now, of course, I think pretty much all casters except Clerics blow (BLOW) at low level, but that's really a tougher issue, because how do you make the spellcasters more powerful at low level, but take some power away from the higher levels to compensate? Tough call.

[veekie]

Hmm, how about minor element related abilities they can call on at will?

[InnaBinder]

Here's the thing. I'm putting together an oriental campaign, and that means there needs to be more Shugenja.

The problem is... as they are, Shugenja suck. BIG time. So I need to make 'em better.

First no-brainer is changing their spell lists. Those will need a major overhaul, but I'm not even sure where to begin.

Basically, the elements are divvy'd up like this:

Fire: we blast, blast, then blast s'more. We should be REALLY good at it. Maybe put a couple of SoDs, too.
Air: transport and illusion magic. Movement-related buffs should go here, too.
Water: primarily healing and divination. Ice spells go here too.
Earth: buffing, protection, and a bit of battlefield control, coupled with single-target imprisonment types (but no SoDs). Disintegrate is on their list for some reason, too.

The problem is that amped up spell lists alone won't do the job. We need to come up with some class features that match the elemental theme thingies better. (Hit/damage bonuses for Fire, higher CL/saves for air, etc.)

So, here's to hoping we can get somewhere.

I've been looking at much the same issue in my campaign.
Fire: Blast and AoE effects are only useful if the player chooses more versatile options for the basic spells; most are smart enough to do this.  Rays and Orbs added to the list here add some versatility in terms of how the damage gets handed out.  Should get some sort of WF-style bonus Feats to increase accuracy, perhaps with Spell Penetration.

Air: Deflect Arrows is an obvious bonus Feat here, thematically appropriate.  Add in other defenses against Ranged attacks.

Water: Heals, heals, and heals some more.  This could just be the way my players approach it, I recognize.  Water seems the most likely to get some sort of ability to deal with Undead, due to their reliance on Positive Energy spells.

Earth: On paper, the most 'balanced and playable' of the elemental types.  Reasonably solid all around.  Burrowing or other earth-based movement options increase versatility.

[RobbyPants]

Well, first and foremost: how powerful do you want them to be?  Are they to compete with the core casters?  Do you want to aim more for something like the beguiler or dread necromancer?  Knowing what we're aiming for is the first step in adjusting the power.

Hmm, how about minor element related abilities they can call on at will?

Other than altering the spell list, that's the first thing that came to my mind.  It could be any number of things.  Some may be at will or per encounter abilities, and some may be static boosts.  Maybe fire shugenja add some boost to their direct damage spells.  Maybe water shugenja add some boost to their healing spells.  This way, any earth or fire shugenja could still cast fire and water spells, but not as well as one who specializes in the element.

[Elennsar]

I would prefer that. Either that or make all elements equally (un)adaptible, in which case its merely making sure that the limits of being an Earth Shugenja aren't so bad that its a matter of "Shugenja of any sort suck."

In Legend of the Five Rings, there's a "favored element" and an "unfavored element"...an element you're weaker at than normal.

Having that would be preferable, in my opinion, to having "pick one element. You are focused entirely on that element."

So you could be strong in Earth but weak in Fire, or strong in Air but weak in Water, or any other combination. (No sign that "elemental opposites" are necesarily the case.)

Of course, that's Rokugan, but I'd say its a good idea if shugenja are the primary full casters. Their spell list (as a class, not any individual shugenja's) isn't really suited to "shugenja, wizards, clerics, etc." I think. Just my impression, of course.

[Akalsaris]

How about giving them an advanced learning ability at 4th, 6th, 8th, etc, where they can add 1 spell from the druid or wiz/sorc list to their spells known, so long as it has a subtype that matches their element focus?

How about going the dread necromancer route, where they know all the spells on the list for their element, their order and the All category of the shugenja list, and can cast any of them spontaneously with their available slots? 

Both options would give them a lot more flexibility, which is what the class needs so badly.

[Kuroimaken]

Okay, let's see...

As for what I want Shugenja to be: a Tier 3 class. Probably not competing with Wizards/Clerics (though seriously... WHAT is going to compete with them?).

I've been looking at much the same issue in my campaign.
Fire: Blast and AoE effects are only useful if the player chooses more versatile options for the basic spells; most are smart enough to do this.  Rays and Orbs added to the list here add some versatility in terms of how the damage gets handed out.  Should get some sort of WF-style bonus Feats to increase accuracy, perhaps with Spell Penetration.

Air: Deflect Arrows is an obvious bonus Feat here, thematically appropriate.  Add in other defenses against Ranged attacks.

Water: Heals, heals, and heals some more.  This could just be the way my players approach it, I recognize.  Water seems the most likely to get some sort of ability to deal with Undead, due to their reliance on Positive Energy spells.

Earth: On paper, the most 'balanced and playable' of the elemental types.  Reasonably solid all around.  Burrowing or other earth-based movement options increase versatility.

Well, I was thinking of adding to the class instead of reworking it from the ground up. That said, the abilities suggested here work well as a start. Though Air could use something even more movement or illusion-related...

How about, for starters, giving Shugenja of each element Reserve Feats? At low levels, those could be pretty good.

In Legend of the Five Rings, there's a "favored element" and an "unfavored element"...an element you're weaker at than normal.

Current version is "Favored Element" and "Prohibited Element" (pick Fire and you can't cast Water Spells, for example).

How about giving them an advanced learning ability at 4th, 6th, 8th, etc, where they can add 1 spell from the druid or wiz/sorc list to their spells known, so long as it has a subtype that matches their element focus?

How about going the dread necromancer route, where they know all the spells on the list for their element, their order and the All category of the shugenja list, and can cast any of them spontaneously with their available slots?

Both options would give them a lot more flexibility, which is what the class needs so badly.

Advanced Learning sounds a bit better for one reason... it's already a given that we'll have to tweak their spell lists. As is, they're just not very good - NO ONE will ever play a Water or Fire Shugenja, for example, because the first lacks offensive options and the second lacks battlefield control (and even in terms of blasting, it's rather subpar. EARTH does a better job at blasting than they do.)

[veekie]

Advanced learning, doh, how did I miss that, it'd nicely widen their spell selection.

[InnaBinder]

A patch I use is allowing the Shugenja to cast any thematically appropriate Cleric spells off of scrolls or wands without needing UMD, even if they're not on the spell list.

[Kuroimaken]

A patch I use is allowing the Shugenja to cast any thematically appropriate Cleric spells off of scrolls or wands without needing UMD, even if they're not on the spell list.

I don't find that to be that big a boost, specially since a lot of Wizard spells fit them better. But it's an idea.

[bkdubs123]

Well, what you could do, is for each element say that it can use activate any magic device to emulate spells of their appropriate type, regardless of what's actually on their spell list.

Fire Shugenja then could use any wand or scroll or staff to cast any spell with the [Fire] Descriptor, for instance.

[Kuroimaken]

Well, what you could do, is for each element say that it can use activate any magic device to emulate spells of their appropriate type, regardless of what's actually on their spell list.

Fire Shugenja then could use any wand or scroll or staff to cast any spell with the [Fire] Descriptor, for instance.

That's practically a given, but not that big a boost if you think about it (since it's an equipment-dependent boost).

[bkdubs123]

Meh. The game is equipment dependant. I'll take a look at the class again tonight though and give you more thorough advice. I just hate working with full casters. The whole system of spells per day, and how spells work generally makes me sick.

[InnaBinder]

Well, what you could do, is for each element say that it can use activate any magic device to emulate spells of their appropriate type, regardless of what's actually on their spell list.

Fire Shugenja then could use any wand or scroll or staff to cast any spell with the [Fire] Descriptor, for instance.

That's practically a given, but not that big a boost if you think about it (since it's an equipment-dependent boost).

Probably depends to an extent on how prevalent UMD is in your campaign.  Shugenja have craptastic skill points/level and are disinclined to make INT a decent stat by any other mechanic.  The notion that they might not have to sink points into UMD that they could instead use for Knowledge skills - assuming they're the primary divine caster in a party - has appeal.  It's nice to be able to pick up that wand of Lesser Fire Orb in a pinch without worrying about a very bad hair day.

[Kuroimaken]

Probably depends to an extent on how prevalent UMD is in your campaign.  Shugenja have craptastic skill points/level and are disinclined to make INT a decent stat by any other mechanic.  The notion that they might not have to sink points into UMD that they could instead use for Knowledge skills - assuming they're the primary divine caster in a party - has appeal.  It's nice to be able to pick up that wand of Lesser Fire Orb in a pinch without worrying about a very bad hair day.

Actually, their skill points aren't that shabby when you think about it (Hello, Sorcerers/Fighters!).