Author Topic: ToB - good to remove chance from the equation?  (Read 2295 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Runestar

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 820
ToB - good to remove chance from the equation?
« on: May 20, 2008, 02:12:47 AM »
Take for instance the diamond mind maneuvers which let you sub concentration checks in place of saves. Most of the time, this would be sufficient in letting you make a save, assuming you don't roll abysmally low. Steady concentration removes all the downside risks by allowing you to take 10 on concentration checks. Barring some extreme scenarios, this should be enough to let you automatically succeed at any save.

How useful/viable is it in general to build a martial adept around the concept of accepting fixed die results (or being able to reroll crappy results) over relying on the most fickle of women - lady luck? Sure, I can never enjoy the upside benefits of rolling that natural 20, but I will never have to contend with the downsides of rolling low either.

Likewise, quite a number of maneuvers are practically all-or-nothing. For example, diamond blade nightmare either lets me deal 4xdamage only if I succeed on a concentration check and attack roll, and nothing if I fail. Since standard action maneuvers effectively allow me just 1 attack/round, it makes sense to want to maximize this 1 attack as much as possible.

For instance, I am contemplating a warblade who will take steady concentration at 6th lv, and find some way of qualifying for aura of absolute law (the stance which lets you take 11 on rolls) at 12th lv. If taking 11 on an attack roll is not enough to hit his AC, I would use lightning recovery to initiate a reroll and roll normally.

I am torn between dual stance (aura of law+stance of alacrity) or weapon supremacy at lv20 though.

I will stop shy of mentioning how it would allow me to power attack for the precise amount every time, because that would be blatant metagaming (and it is not too difficult to adjust a monster's AC via legitimate means).

Is this workable? How do you think it will fare in actual gameplay (I won't know since this is just a theoretical concept at the moment). Might it run the risk of becoming too boring since I will always know with near-absolute certainty how I will fare in challenges? Likewise, my DM will know that I can never fail a save, which can be irritating.

Also, what other ways are there of fixing your die rolls or rerolling them? :)
A clear conscience is the surest sign of a failing memory.

SagremorTheUnruly

  • Monkey bussiness
  • *
  • Posts: 7
Re: ToB - good to remove chance from the equation?
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2008, 02:56:19 AM »
I probably wouldn't allow the feat because I like dice being rolled, but it still isn't that broken or anything. You will never crit doing this, and your save can get dragged down through other means (Enervation being a prime example; also Con damage will hurt all of your saves at once). There's also the simple fact that a caster can blast you with two saves in a row, to say nothing of multiple opponents targeting you with saves. You only get one swift action. Just using Lightning Recovery means you can't cover your saves anymore.

It's good, but not fantastically good IMO. It could be one of those things that just SEEMS fantastically good and gets your DM and fellow players mad.

tsuyoshikentsu

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 468
    • For My Mother: An Internet Serial
    • Email
Re: ToB - good to remove chance from the equation?
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2008, 04:00:41 AM »
They decided to make it work that way to start with in 4E.  That it in what sense thou wilt.
Anyway, this cake is great!  It's so delicious and moist.

Stalk me on Twitter!  Validate my existence!  Maybe Even Get An Optimization Tip!

Omen of Peace

  • Hong Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 1053
  • Wise Madman
Re: ToB - good to remove chance from the equation?
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2008, 04:47:22 AM »
To re-roll there are quite a few items in the MIC and one in the DMG. There are also the luck feats the power of the Luck Domain.

Given the low number of readied maneuvers a Warblade has, you're shortchanging yourself by readying the 3 DM counters and Lightning Recovery. And as has been pointed out you can only use 1 counter/round (except late in the game with the Stance of Alacrity).

Personally I love Aura of Perfect Order : since a high-level martial adept will generally hit an AC without too much trouble, the main problem is rolling a 1. And you can use it for initiative, for saves...
The Malazan Book of the Fallen, Steven Erikson

Runestar

  • King Kong
  • ****
  • Posts: 820
Re: ToB - good to remove chance from the equation?
« Reply #4 on: May 20, 2008, 05:31:58 AM »
Quote
Given the low number of readied maneuvers a Warblade has, you're shortchanging yourself by readying the 3 DM counters and Lightning Recovery. And as has been pointed out you can only use 1 counter/round (except late in the game with the Stance of Alacrity).

Well, I don't plan on keeping them readied at all times even if the situation does not call for it, since adaptive style lets me swap in a fresh array of maneuvers best suited to deal with any current scenario as a full round action (and combos well with moment of alacrity), plus I cannot use immediate actions when flat-footed anyways. Lightning recovery is to be used only in scenarios consisting of foes with ridiculously high ACs. where a roll of more than 10 or 11 is needed to hit the opponent. When you have a strike of precise clarity tacked onto your normal melee attack, the difference between a hit and a miss is very significant indeed... :wink

For instance, if I am facing a dragon, I could swap in action before thought (excellent in conjunction with evasion against its breath weapon), moment of perfect mind (to guard against its frightful presence), and maybe a few strikes such as emerald razor in conjunction with power attack (touch attacks against a dragon? :D).

I do plan on augmenting this with diamond defense, since I am well aware of the limitations of the warblade refresh mechanic.

Quote
There's also the simple fact that a caster can blast you with two saves in a row, to say nothing of multiple opponents targeting you with saves. You only get one swift action. Just using Lightning Recovery means you can't cover your saves anymore.

True that. It definitely seems more effective if I am facing a single foe and will not need to make more than 1-2 saves each round, than than a horde of lower lv spellcasters spamming area-affecting spells on the entire party.

Seems it is not quite as efficacious as I initially thought... :blush
A clear conscience is the surest sign of a failing memory.

Risada

  • Grape ape
  • *****
  • Posts: 1827
  • Wearing this outfit in the name of SCIENCE!
    • Email
Re: ToB - good to remove chance from the equation?
« Reply #5 on: May 20, 2008, 03:20:17 PM »
Well.... I will tell you something I experienced in a game where I am playing a Warblade...

The Diamond Mind maneuvers are nice on the Warblade if you know the kind of save your next opponent is gonna use on you (i.e. if you are going to face some mob with lots of mind-affecting abilities, the Concentration to will counter is golden, as long as you manage to refresh your maneuvers every once in a while...)

But, in case you don't know, there are 2 ways to do it: either have Adaptive Style, or rely on your own save  :P

Optimator

  • Bi-Curious George
  • ****
  • Posts: 495
  • Made Man
Re: ToB - good to remove chance from the equation?
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2008, 07:30:57 PM »
(i.e. if you are going to face some mob with lots of mind-affecting abilities,
:sh