Graft Weapon Power Abuse

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Okay, so a smart player might still stack both. I would allow the stacking, because I'm nice, and it says "you may execute a charge by ...". Also multi-pounce just makes me sad  . I would ban the shit outta shadow pounce if any player even joked of taking Telflammer Shadowlord: darksight, blur, shadow walk, discorporation, and death attack are cool. But the closest I'll allow is spring attack + cleave. But consistently attacking the same poor enemy three to five full attacks is just 

Also holy shit, looking back at Power Attack: "If you attack with a two-handed weapon, ..., instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls." Carnivore does this mean a mounted character dual wielding lances (ignoring Graft Weapon for a sec) would get double PA on each of them?

[PhaedrusXY]

Also holy shit, looking back at Power Attack: "If you attack with a two-handed weapon, ..., instead add twice the number subtracted from your attack rolls." Carnivore does this mean a mounted character dual wielding lances (ignoring Graft Weapon for a sec) would get double PA on each of them?

No. Two-handed refers to how you weild the weapon. You can get double PA returns from holding a longsword in two hands, but not from holding a lance in one. At least, that's how I read it...

[carnivore]

i agree.... the Lance must be used with 2 hands to gain the PA benifit, even though it can be weilded with one while mounted... the feat itself says that... notice:

POWER ATTACK [GENERAL]
Prerequisite: Str 13.

Benefit: On your action, before making attack rolls for a round, you may choose to subtract a number from all melee attack rolls and add the same number to all melee damage rolls. This number may not exceed your base attack bonus. The penalty on attacks and bonus on damage apply until your next turn.

Special: If you attack with a two-handed weapon, or with a one-handed weapon wielded in two hands,

 

[Cyrocloud]

Could you grab your arm/weapon with your free hand then to treat it as a two handed weapon?

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

I accept that, but would enforce consistency with your statement "it is still a 2 Handed weapon with a special ability that allows it to be weilded with one hand under certain circumstances" carnivore for the target of the graft weapon power. Well, does it count as a 1 xor a 2 handed weapon for powers and feats?

[EjoThims]

I accept that, but would enforce consistency with your statement "it is still a 2 Handed weapon with a special ability that allows it to be weilded with one hand under certain circumstances" carnivore for the target of graft weapon. Well, does it count as a 1 xor a 2 handed weapon for powers and feats?

Lances are a 2H weapon. However, as long as you are riding a horse, you treat it as a one-handed weapon, but just like other one-handed weapons, you can still hold it in two hands to get x2 PA damage.

There's no inconsistency. 

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

EjoThims, read the abve. What about Graft Weapon's targets? The consistency issue still stands.

[EjoThims]

EjoThims, learn to read. You failed to mention anything about Graft Weapon's targets. The consistency issue still stands.

I can read, though seemingly, you can't.

As long as you are mounted, the lance is a valid target for the spell.

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Hmm, I was correct that you didn't mention anything about the target of Graft Weapon. Please see carnivore's responce since you do not seem to understand where I pointed out a conflict. The conflict is in use vs. classification. His argument was that classification (not a special, mounted use) determined legal targets. I said I understand this reasoning but if lances are still classified as 2-handed despite their special use then we get interesting results with PA. I was using PA to refute carnivore's logic. Either lances are treated in every aspect as 1-handed weapons while mounted (therefore acting as expected for PA and as a legal target for Graft Weapon) or as carnivore put it:

"since the weapon is described as a Two Handed Weapon it is not a legal target for the Graft Weapon power.... the fact that it does allow for single handed use while mounted does not change it into a one handed Weapon...... it is still a 2 Handed weapon with a special ability that allows it to be wielded with one hand under certain circumstances"

I personally think that the "any melee weapon you can use in one hand" means we don't have to worry about lance's technical classification under 2-handed weapons, thus saving PA strangeness. However if we go the other way then what matters is the classification and not the use...

[Omen of Peace]

Wait, does someone not agree with "a grafted lance is not a two-handed weapon" ?

[skydragonknight]

You need to hold your grafted weapon with your other hand supporting it just like Mega Man to get the full benefit of the charge-up beam...I mean Power Attack!

Though seriously, when you aren't mounted, you can no longer use your grafted lance without a second hand, since the lance still counts as a standard(manufactured) weapon and follows all the rules for its type unless otherwise specified. I fail to see any text that it's not still treated as a weapon of it's type.
And since it follows the rules for a lance, when you ARE mounted it counts as a one-handed weapon, so no double benefit of PA without holding it in two hands.

But don't despair, the Girallon's Blessing spell, a soulmeld of an oddly similar name and some grafts/magic items will come save the day by giving you an extra pair of arms so you can dual-wield 2-handed weapons. you might want Oversized TWF though or else the penalties will really hurt.

[EjoThims]

I personally think that the "any melee weapon you can use in one hand" means we don't have to worry about lance's technical classification under 2-handed weapons, thus saving PA strangeness. However if we go the other way then what matters is the classification and not the use...

This is what I'm saying.

Since while mounted you can use it in one hand, it fits the target.

To get full PA from it, you would still have to use both hands though.

As well, once you demount, it's not longer a valid target, and then problems would arise.

[carnivore]

i agree .... for consistency .... since the Power is Dismissable... Dismounting without holding the Lance with your other hand, could be considered Voluntarily Dismissing the power(without using an Action)

 

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

And now we're back full circle to the dismissibility of the power! Yup skydragonknight I believe I alluded to the Girallon's Blessing solution by bringing up the Naga Item (since we don't always have a DMM-cleric in the party) and there are only so many feats/dips for incarnum bindings. But yes, extra support on those weapons never hurts.

In fact, if I recall a character can chose to wield a weapon 1 size up if he could have 2-handed a 1-handed weapon. With 2 or 3 of those extra arms sets we could get both the extra support to 2-hand both of the weapons AND have each weapon 1 or 2 sizes larger than normal, correct?

If so, adding Totemist2, some outside DMM help, and some cash could, on an unrelated note, use 2 sizes up (again doubling base damage) while still using two hands for the str and PA bonus.

[woodenbandman]

Technically the Girallon Arms soulmeld says nowhere that you can use your extra arms to do anything but attack.

Girallon's Blessing does, but the Girallon Arms meld does not. It's not that much of a stretch, but it's enough for some DMs. My DM won't even let my ape animal companion wield a stick

[Callix]

Technically the Girallon Arms soulmeld says nowhere that you can use your extra arms to do anything but attack.

Girallon's Blessing does, but the Girallon Arms meld does not. It's not that much of a stretch, but it's enough for some DMs. My DM won't even let my ape animal companion wield a stick

Buy Gloves of Man. Girallon Arms/Blessing gives you arms. Gloves of Man let you use arms for anything you can use normal arms for. Similarly, you can add Arms of Plenty. See the >1 million attacks in a single full attack thread in TO for all the different ways you can get more arms.

It turns out that the best way is to actually get more legs.

[Cyrocloud]

The srd says you can graft any weapon you can use in one hand, and under two handed weapons it says that two hands are need to wield the weapon effectively.  So this would lead me to believe that two handed weapons can be used in one hand, but not as effectively, so something along the lines of a -4 penalty would probably be whats needed to use it, or a balanced medium lance would be equal to a small lance so it could be then used in one hand(in a rush so there might be an error or two.).

[PlzBreakMyCampaign]

Woodenbandman [are you oboe,clarinet, or bassoon player perhaps?] Nice job on the stickler DM issue, but I would let it go if I were dm'ing based on the picture (the hands look ordinary). But yes gloves of man would cover that problem for a strick DM (at a pretty penny though). Callix, where is that thread? I know I've seen it around but I can't find it now... Adding the arms of plenty (wiz3) to the DMM-help area with 42k gloves of man

Cryocloud, that would be the other (and nicer) way I would deal with a mounted lance-grafted character becoming unmounted - but don't quote me on that since my proficiency-fu isn't all that strong.

Okay people, take a look at what I found in my DnD texts: Sharptooth [Waz4] (SpC 188). It allows you to choose a natural weapon [type] and bump its damage up another category. This is the sort of thing I was looking for and that will help Graft Weapon excel [with some DMM help and Imbue with Spell Ability modified by a Miracle]

Now that we have some juicy extras, I updated the first post to summarize them.

[EjoThims]

Callix, where is that thread? I know I've seen it around but I can't find it now...

1,063,372 attacks in a single action

 

Sharptooth

Don't forget about the Jaws of the Dragon from Draconomnomnomicon. They have a permanent Sharptooth affect, which, just like the spell, can increase any natural attack, not just bite. But you do need to have a bite attack to gain it's benefits.

[Cyrocloud]

Would this work with the soulknife's mind blade?  It would make it a little more viable of a class I guess...Maybe a soulknife 5/war mind 5/illume soul 4/kensai 6.